For those who believe in the "Scar Is Nala's Father" Theory

[DGFone]

I know just as well as the next guy that there is no proof going either way as to whether or not Nuka is Scar's son. I just don't see the reason why to hate the fan theories. Sure, they might use evidence that doesn't hold up, and that is why we can have a long topic about it: members poking and probing each other's theories and stories as to why or why not something is in the movie the way it is and some other way.

To argue that all fan theories are useless because they are at the core non-canon is true, but on a forum like this, is such an argument really necessary? I, for one, read this topic specifically so that I can see why others think one way or another. There's no proof going one way or the other, but if you can't handle fan theories...

...then I think that you've come to the wrong place.

Don't rage against fan theories. It's what many people come here for.

[SlayerOfLight]

^ if you insist on still being a fan theory believer then be my guest, I'm not gonna stop you or hate you for it. I was just stating my point that fan theories are merely theories and nothing more. I don't see how that is ''raging'' though... And just so you know, I have nothing against fan theories except when people start regarding fan theories as official. This is when I feel the need to step in and correct them by teaching them the diffrence between canon and non-canon.

[TheLionPrince]

[quote="Regulus"][quote="TheLionPrince"]
Nuka being Scar's son just doesn't make any sense because not once in the movie does Nuka mention Scar as "Dad" or "Father"[/quote]
As far as I can remember, he never mentions Scar except that one time.[/quote]

Yes, he only mentions Scar only that one time; twice if we let the deleted scenes come in play. Through this, this should tell us all we need to know about Nuka's relationship with Scar: he isn't his biological father and resents Scar for not choosing him because he is the eldest of his most loyal follower. Above all, I wouldn't mind if we considered Scar as his adoptive father as the same for Vitani and Kovu.


[quote="Regulus"][quote="TheLionPrince"]and after Nuka dies, Zira mourns stating Scar to watch her "poor Nuka" not "our poor Nuka".[/quote]


There could be a few reasons for this:

•Scar never viewed Nuka as his heir, so Zira viewed Nuka as her cub. With her comment, she was pleading Scar to be more accepting of him, after he died for their cause.
•Zira, being the one to raise Nuka, thought of him as her cub, not their cub.
•Zira was mourning her loss, and in her state of shock, she was thinking very selfishly.[/quote]

Those are valid reasons except probably your last point, but I'll get to that later. You do have to recall that these lions in this universe (or most of them) believe that after they die, their bodies decomposes to the ground and their souls become spirits in the has mentioned by Mufasa in the film and questioned by Kovu in the second film. With Zira asking Scar to watch her poor Nuka, she clearly means that while she can't look over his deceased body physically, she is leaving it to Scar to take care of his soul in the afterlife.

As for your last point, it's likely that Zira was thinking about herself, but she's thinking about Nuka as she knows that since Scar received her as a follower, then, Scar should receive Nuka because of her. I see no reason why Zira shouldn't have said "their" poor Nuka, this would give greater emphasis on why Scar should watch over him.

[quote="Regulus"][quote="TheLionPrince"]




If deleted scenes were to count in this situation, after Zira fantasizes about being Scar's "loving, devoted queen"[/quote]


Never saw that. When you say fantasizes, do you mean she fantasizes about being queen altogether, or fantasizes, longing for what she once had and what could have been? I would interpret this as the latter, but regardless, that already makes her more than a follower.[/quote]

Looking back at it again, Zira is stating what could have been her title if Simba didn't dethrone Scar. With Kovu as Scar's heir, she would have been in some ways, Scar's queen, despite not having a cub together.

I trust you to be somewhat familiar with the history of the Roman Empire. Augustus married Livia Drusilla who had divorced Tiberius Claudius Nero, and had a child by the same name as Tiberius. Because of this, Livia is the official empress consort and Tiberius is Augustus's stepson as well as his adopted heir. This is slightly no different than what we know of Scar and Zira during his reign.

[quote="Regulus"][quote="TheLionPrince"]And it's commonly accepted by the fanbase that Zira and the Outsiders were exiled by Simba for their past loyalty to Scar. While I do have a theory that Zira could have attacked Simba or the Pridelanders, my purpose of the attack was for Zira to avenge Scar's death.[/quote]


The general consensus regarding the situation in the Pridelands is that it was horrible under Scar's reign. We all know how manipulative Scar could be, so it is by no means unreasonable to assume that he gave Zira special privileges, in one way or another. There is simply no other way she could be so devoted to such an awful king in the eyes of the rest of her pride, without resorting to mental illnesses.[/quote]

We may never know, though I wouldn't put too past Zira that she was mentally fit to begin with. And as far as why Zira could have remained loyal to Scar despite the hard times, it's well known that Scar placed the blame on Sarabi and the hunting party. With Sarabi and the hunting party as Scar's source of criticism, there's no reason why Zira couldn't see it the same way.

[quote="DGFone"]Which against goes to my point of that if Zira adopted Nuka, there is still the possibility that he saw her as his mother, due to a lack of a real one. After all, how many real foster children refer to their adoptive parents as "mother and father"? The same deal here: Even if Zira didn't appreciate him until the very end, Nuka still saw her as the mother that he most certainly longed for, and referred to her as such.[/quote]

It's a fine point ot make, though there's little of anything in the movie to fall back on that indicate Zira adopted Nuka.

And I agree that Simba's Pride is the official sequel to the canon film, though it would be canon if the filmmakers (Roger Allers, Rob Minkoff, Don Hahn etc.) accepted the film as canon alongside their film.

[Regulus]

A few more points I want to make:

First of all, we can infer that Zira knew Scar before he died; that's how she became his follower. We can also assume from this that she was once a Pridelander.

Now, consider this. Zira is living in the Pridelands during Scar's reign. How does she end up bearing the cubs of a male other than Scar? The short answer is that she doesn't. All three of her cubs were most likely born after Scar's reign, during her exile (provided that Nuka isn't Scar's son).

So, this raises yet another question: what male fathered her three cubs? Was it the same male? Where did he go afterward, and why isn't he in SP?

But the questions don't end there. If Zira was the mate of another male, did he die? Why was Zira so obsessed with Scar, rather than her own mate? If she was in love with another lion, wouldn't she have been focused on creating her own pride, then, instead of being hellbent on avenging an (arguably) crappy king?

Because Kovu never mentions his true father, I have inferred that Kovu doesn't know his true father. As such, I do not believe the other male was very attached to Zira; they didn't stick together for very long. If they did, Zira would have told her cub about him, instead of Scar.

Considering that, I do not believe that male would have been around Zira long enough to father two liters of cubs. Therefore, Nuka's father is most likely a lion other than Kovu and Vitani's father.

And since it is entirely likely (almost implied) that Kiara was conceived in the jungle before Simba returned, it is by no means unreasonable to assume that Kovu and Vitani were conceived at around the same time--probably only days or weeks after Scar's death. Since Nuka is quite a bit older than Kovu, I believe that he was alive during Scar's reign.

And so we're right back where we started. Zira was a follower of Scar. During Scar's reign, Zira had a cub named Nuka, and they lived in the Pridelands. Would Scar have killed Nuka if Nuka wasn't his son? Probably, but maybe not, as this topic originally pointed out.

But, the greater question is this: would Zira have been willing to mate with a lion other than Scar, while Scar was still alive? Probably not, considering how obsessive she was.

No lion would have dared to enter the Pridelands under Scar's reign. This is especially true of an adult male, who would have been viewed as a threat to Scar's rule. Therefore, Zira would have had to leave the Pridelands to even have met another male. I doubt Scar would have let that happen.

Of course, it is possible to say that Zira was exiled after Scar's death, and then she met a male and became Nuka's mother. But I view this as unlikely, just because that would mean there was a huge gap between the events of TLK and SP.

[quote="Julie Skywalker"]In addition, the only time Nuka mentions Scar, he refers to him as just that, Scar.[/quote]

[quote="TheLionPrince"][quote="Regulus"][quote="TheLionPrince"]
Nuka being Scar's son just doesn't make any sense because not once in the movie does Nuka mention Scar as "Dad" or "Father"[/quote]
As far as I can remember, he never mentions Scar except that one time.[/quote]

Yes, he only mentions Scar only that one time; twice if we let the deleted scenes come in play. Through this, this should tell us all we need to know about Nuka's relationship with Scar: he isn't his biological father and resents Scar for not choosing him because he is the eldest of his most loyal follower. Above all, I wouldn't mind if we considered Scar as his adoptive father as the same for Vitani and Kovu. [/quote]

I honestly don't understand how that means anything. If Nuka had said "Dad wasn't even [Kovu's] father," that doesn't make much sense, does it?

[quote="Julie Skywalker"]As much as Zira idolized Scar, if Nuka was his son, he'd be bragging about it often, he'd be pointing it out, and he'd be complaining even more that she was focusing on someone who wasn't even Scar's son.[/quote]

I can't imagine Nuka complaining any more than he was. That was literally all he did, from the beginning up until his last 10 seconds of screen time. I imagine that he didn't brag about it because he knew Zira would ignore him anyway.

[quote="Julie Skywalker"]If he was the son of Scar, Zira probably would have seen him in a better light than she did, and he would have been the one she'd raise to defeat Simba (whether Scar "hand-chose" a cub that was born after his death or not). The REAL son of Scar would have meant more to her than any other cub.[/quote]

Not if Nuka was the rejected son of Scar. You're assuming that if Nuka was Scar's son, Scar would have liked him--which is essentially the exact opposite of my theory.

I believe that Scar despised his own son at first sight, disowning Nuka completely. Not only is it in line with Scar's character to perform such a selfish act, but it justifies Zira's search for another male and another cub to bear, as well as Nuka's deep feeling of rejection that persists in every scene that he's in. Ultimately, that's what defines him as a character.

[DGFone]

Actually, about Zira knowing Scar before he died:

Could it be that the only reason why she is such a loyal follower is that instead of actually meeting him, she only heard stories about him? What if Zira entered the Pride Lands after Scar's fall, but already with ideas about what such a great leader he is. No doubt Scar was also busy keeping a very strong propaganda machine running, at least in order to appear like a strong king and keep potential males who might want the throne out. So two stories can get out: what is actually happening, and what Scar wants the rest of Africa to think. What if where Zira came from, only the lies came through?

Imagine if she heard great things about him before the fall of the Pride Lands, such as during when he had just taken over and the land still lived, and it took her a long time to finally get the chance to go to the land of this Great King...

...Only to find it ruled by another lion claiming to be Scar's nephew, claiming that Scar was a bad ruler, and that he really isn't that Great as she heard. Maybe after this point she had no chance of going back to where she came from, or maybe she devised a plan to take over the Pride Lands herself and place in charge her own pet king to act as a Great Scar King that she wanted all along.

After all, she was never spotted in the first movie, so it's entirely possible that she was never in the Pride Lands until after it ended, as well as it gives a reason as to why Simba would readily exile her: she is not really a Pride Lander to begin with (also explains the different looks), and she wants to take over the throne by force.

[Carl]

[quote="DGFone"]I, for one, read this topic specifically so that I can see why others think one way or another.[/quote]
Isn't that why we're all here? To give our opinions and reasons behind them and see what others think as well?

I didn't take anything that I've read here as bashing fan theories, or raging against them.

I greatly enjoy all of the different fan theories out there, and love reading them. But that doesn't make me agree with any of them or consider them to be canon.

[quote="Regulus"]I honestly don't understand how that means anything. If Nuka had said "Dad wasn't even [Kovu's] father," that doesn't make much sense, does it?[/quote]

It also doesn't make sense for him to refer to his father by name. Some kids do that, but it's usually seen as disrespectful, and I doubt Zira would have let that fly.

[quote]I can't imagine Nuka complaining any more than he was. That was literally all he did, from the beginning up until his last 10 seconds of screen time. I imagine that he didn't brag about it because he knew Zira would ignore him anyway.[/quote]

Yes it was the only thing he did. But even if it was Zira's plan, if he were Scar's son, why would he help Kovu get what he felt was entitled to him? The only reason he did it was to try and please Zira, which he wanted to do so she would realize that he was "better" than Kovu.

[quote]Not if Nuka was the rejected son of Scar. You're assuming that if Nuka was Scar's son, Scar would have liked him--which is essentially the exact opposite of my theory.

I believe that Scar despised his own son at first sight, disowning Nuka completely. Not only is it in line with Scar's character to perform such a selfish act, but it justifies Zira's search for another male and another cub to bear, as well as Nuka's deep feeling of rejection that persists in every scene that he's in. Ultimately, that's what defines him as a character.[/quote]

I'm not assuming any such things- I don't think Scar liked any cubs. I am assuming that based on the movie (not TLKoB as I've not seen it) it was out of Scar's character to be interested in having cubs, and Kovu had to be born after Scar's death. That being the case, he couldn't have favored Kovu over Nuka and even if he were Nuka's father and had rejected him, Nuka would be all that Zira had left of Scar, and it seems to me like she would focus on proving to him that Nuka was capable instead of on having other cubs that he might like better.

[quote="DGFone"]Actually, about Zira knowing Scar before he died:

Could it be that the only reason why she is such a loyal follower is that instead of actually meeting him, she only heard stories about him? What if Zira entered the Pride Lands after Scar's fall, but already with ideas about what such a great leader he is. No doubt Scar was also busy keeping a very strong propaganda machine running, at least in order to appear like a strong king and keep potential males who might want the throne out. So two stories can get out: what is actually happening, and what Scar wants the rest of Africa to think. What if where Zira came from, only the lies came through?

Imagine if she heard great things about him before the fall of the Pride Lands, such as during when he had just taken over and the land still lived, and it took her a long time to finally get the chance to go to the land of this Great King...

...Only to find it ruled by another lion claiming to be Scar's nephew, claiming that Scar was a bad ruler, and that he really isn't that Great as she heard. Maybe after this point she had no chance of going back to where she came from, or maybe she devised a plan to take over the Pride Lands herself and place in charge her own pet king to act as a Great Scar King that she wanted all along.

After all, she was never spotted in the first movie, so it's entirely possible that she was never in the Pride Lands until after it ended, as well as it gives a reason as to why Simba would readily exile her: she is not really a Pride Lander to begin with (also explains the different looks), and she wants to take over the throne by force.[/quote]

And I think this is also very plausible. Or if she did come to the Pridelands during Scar's reign (she certainly wasn't there before his reign) then it's likely she could have already been pregnant with Nuka when she arrived in the Pridelands, and as Nuka wouldn't have been a threat to the throne, Scar would have had no reason to kill him.

[Regulus]

Zazu calls the Outlanders backstabbing murders.

[quote]back·stab·bing
the action or practice of criticizing someone in a treacherous manner while feigning friendship.[/quote]

This sorta means that the Outlanders were once viewed by Zazu as friends--which strongly suggests that the Outlanders were once Pridelanders themselves.

I can probably think of a few more pieces of evidence, but my brain is starting to fry.

[DGFone]

[quote="Regulus"]Zazu calls the Outlanders backstabbing murders.[/quote]

I've played enough TF2 to know that in order to get even a beautiful backstab, you only need to be your enemy's friend for only a moment.

What I mean is that if Zira came from elsewhere, and perhaps the rest of the Outlanders as well, maybe even with her, they would have only needed to have been "friends" with the Pride Landers for only a short period of time before the inevitable act that lead to the exiling.

This could also explain why Simba exiled not only Zira, but also why no Pride Landers seem to belong to the Outsiders, and why no Outsiders seemed to be in the Pride Lands during the exile. On the other hand, if the two groups were merged for more than just a short period of time, such a clear division would not have formed, and it would have been likely that at least some Pride Landers and Outsiders would have refused the call of their own side and cross the border or back.

I am of course using physical differences between Outsiders and Pride Landers to mean that they are an entirely different groups of lions, at least until the end of the first movie. /racism

[Carl]

I've also seen a theory that Zira is Scar's cub, and while I don't necessarily agree with it, I don't exclude it as a possibility, after all, she never struck me as old enough to have been Scar's mate.

[DGFone]

She might have been old enough to be Scar's mate (although I personally beg to differ), she sounds and looks way too old to be a daughter of Scar. After all, that will make her almost certainly younger than Simba and Nala, something that she certainly is not.