For those who believe in the "Scar Is Nala's Father" Theory

[TheLionPrince]

If I can barge into the conversation, it's unlikely and flat-out denied by Darrell Rooney who, in my attachment in my last post, explained that in the final version, Zira is a follower, but not a mate of Scar as originally intended.

In your attachment, he states that Zira and Scar's relationship is obscured, not denied. The two a completely different.

We could sit here and interpret what the writers intended all day, but when it comes right down to it, they were only trying to cover up the whole incest issue by doing that. That's why we have these sorts of discussions; because they did a horrible job at covering it up.

The fact of the matter is, Zira was obsessively attracted to the idea of continuing Scar's heritage. So, as adults who know how the world works, are we seriously expected to believe that they didn't have a little something something (hint) going on between them?

Nuka being the son of Zira and Scar just makes sense logically. Scar wanted a heir of his own, we know that from TLKoB. Scar, being the narcissistic lion he was, found Zira and fathered Nuka but denied him the right to the throne, because he was not worthy. As a result, Zira mated with another lion to continue Scar's legacy, thus producing Vitani and Kovu, and Nuka followed his mother as a helpless cub feeling rejected.

Nuka being Scar's son also adds a reason for Simba to exile the Outlanders. This is just speculation, but instead of Zira killing Kopa, it is entirely possible that Zira could have attacked Simba. She could have been trying to protect Scar's cub from the big bad murder, Simba. Either that, or Simba just didn't want to deal with Scar's heir. If there wasn't a direct relationship, it wouldn't have been an issue.

It's obscured, but it's never denied.

Yes, their relationship was obscured, but don't leave out the rest of the sentence: to make her a "follower". Zira and Scar had a relationship with each together which we will never know, but from what I can interpret from Rooney, her relationship with Scar (whatever it was) rose to nothing more than a follower.

Nuka being Scar's son just doesn't make any sense because not once in the movie does Nuka mention Scar as "Dad" or "Father" and after Nuka dies, Zira mourns stating Scar to watch her "poor Nuka" not "our poor Nuka". If deleted scenes were to count in this situation, after Zira fantasizes about being Scar's "loving, devoted queen" and Nuka is reminded that Scar (who again never states as his father) is dead, Nuka responds that as the oldest, he should be king until he's denounced by Zira. And since you tend to quote Nuka's dialogue ("...Scar wasn't even his father. He just took him.") as evidence of being Scar's son, please keep in mind, he later complains to Vitani that because he's the oldest cub of Zira, he should be the chosen heir of Scar. It has little to nothing to do with Nuka's resentment that Kovu isn't Scar's blood descendant.

And it's commonly accepted by the fanbase that Zira and the Outsiders were exiled by Simba for their past loyalty to Scar. While I do have a theory that Zira could have attacked Simba or the Pridelanders, my purpose of the attack was for Zira to avenge Scar's death. It would be line up with Zazu's comments, "Nothing there but a bunch of backstabbing, murderous Outsiders!" They may not be murderers, but they contain a violent character trait that may lead them to be murderers.

[DGFone]

Which against goes to my point of that if Zira adopted Nuka, there is still the possibility that he saw her as his mother, due to a lack of a real one. After all, how many real foster children refer to their adoptive parents as "mother and father"? The same deal here: Even if Zira didn't appreciate him until the very end, Nuka still saw her as the mother that he most certainly longed for, and referred to her as such.

OOC BTW: Am I am the only one who is getting a feeling of deja vu from this topic about the "was Kopa real" war that was waged on his character topic a few years back?

[Regulus]

Yes, their relationship was obscured, but don't leave out the rest of the sentence: to make her a "follower". Zira and Scar had a relationship with each together which we will never know, but from what I can interpret from Rooney, her relationship with Scar (whatever it was) rose to nothing more than a follower.

Yeah, she's a follower of Scar. She's an obsessively loyal follower of Scar, who devoted her entire life to him. That sort of dedication can only mean one of two things:

• She's crazy, stubborn, and narrow-minded.
• She was actually more than "just a follower."

I'm not saying the first one is impossible, but I just don't see it as being as likely as the second.

Nuka being Scar's son just doesn't make any sense because not once in the movie does Nuka mention Scar as "Dad" or "Father"

As far as I can remember, he never mentions Scar except that one time.

and after Nuka dies, Zira mourns stating Scar to watch her "poor Nuka" not "our poor Nuka".

There could be a few reasons for this:

• Scar never viewed Nuka as his heir, so Zira viewed Nuka as her cub. With her comment, she was pleading Scar to be more accepting of him, after he died for their cause.
• Zira, being the one to raise Nuka, thought of him as her cub, not their cub.
• Zira was mourning her loss, and in her state of shock, she was thinking very selfishly.

If deleted scenes were to count in this situation, after Zira fantasizes about being Scar's "loving, devoted queen"

Never saw that. When you say fantasizes, do you mean she fantasizes about being queen altogether, or fantasizes, longing for what she once had and what could have been? I would interpret this as the latter, but regardless, that already makes her more than a follower.

and Nuka is reminded that Scar (who again never states as his father) is dead, Nuka responds that as the oldest, he should be king until he's denounced by Zira. And since you tend to quote Nuka's dialogue ("...Scar wasn't even his father. He just took him.") as evidence of being Scar's son, please keep in mind, he later complains to Vitani that because he's the oldest cub of Zira, he should be the chosen heir of Scar. It has little to nothing to do with Nuka's resentment that Kovu isn't Scar's blood descendant.

I don't see it that way.

Considering that if Nuka was the son of Zira and Scar, that would have made Zira the queen. In that sense, technically, all of her cubs were eligible for the title of king or queen, even though one of her liters was fathered by another male, presumably (but impossibly) before Scar's death.

I'm not sure if that's actually the way it works or not, but that may have been the way Zira, and thus her cubs, imagined it to work.

As the tradition goes, the first born is the one to be the heir, which neither supports nor invalidates my argument.

And it's commonly accepted by the fanbase that Zira and the Outsiders were exiled by Simba for their past loyalty to Scar. While I do have a theory that Zira could have attacked Simba or the Pridelanders, my purpose of the attack was for Zira to avenge Scar's death.

The general consensus regarding the situation in the Pridelands is that it was horrible under Scar's reign. We all know how manipulative Scar could be, so it is by no means unreasonable to assume that he gave Zira special privileges, in one way or another. There is simply no other way she could be so devoted to such an awful king in the eyes of the rest of her pride, without resorting to mental illnesses.

It would be line up with Zazu's comments, "Nothing there but a bunch of backstabbing, murderous Outsiders!" They may not be murderers, but they contain a violent character trait that may lead them to be murderers.

For her to be violent to such a great extent, she must have had something at stake. That's why I said that it could have been Nuka. If Simba killed her beloved Scar, it is only rational of her to assume that Simba would kill Scar's heir as well. Thus, she fought to protect him, which ultimately ended in her exile.

I'll agree to disagree, but that's my self-canon, if you will.

Which against goes to my point of that if Zira adopted Nuka, there is still the possibility that he saw her as his mother, due to a lack of a real one. After all, how many real foster children refer to their adoptive parents as "mother and father"? The same deal here: Even if Zira didn't appreciate him until the very end, Nuka still saw her as the mother that he most certainly longed for, and referred to her as such.

That's not a bad point to make, but this still eludes the one important question: if Nuka wasn't Zira's cub at all, why would she have adopted him?

If she did adopt Nuka, why wouldn't she have ditched him at first sight of Kovu?

Because it was the ethical thing to do doesn't exactly strike me as being a reasonable answer, given the situation. Zira was the mate or follower of Scar, who was obviously the most morally corrupt lion during that time.

I don't see Zira as caring for Nuka's well-being until his death, and I don't imagine that Zira saw much use in Nuka, either.

Also, why would Nuka try to impress Zira in the way that he did, if she was not his true mother? She didn't act like his mother, and if she wasn't his mother, then he would have no reason to consider her as such. He would have no reason to hang around in the Outlands.

If Nuka didn't have blood relations to the Outlanders, he would have been able to stay with the Pridelanders, and he probably would have wanted to do so.

OOC BTW: Am I am the only one who is getting a feeling of deja vu from this topic about the "was Kopa real" war that was waged on his character topic a few years back?

Yeah, totally.

[SlayerOfLight]

Some people here seem to have forgotten that one cannot simply link fan-based theories together with true canon. The thing is, in theory NOTHING could be impossible, not even the fact that Zira could be Simba's aunt. But they're not called ''fan theories'' for nothing, they lack concrete evidence and cannot just be concidered canon unless the SP creators officially confirm it. Yes It's really that simple... People who just blindly assume fan-based theories to be canon are doing nothing more then twisting the official movie universe.

In theory: Nuka is Scar's son.
In canon: Nuka isn't Scar's son.

So technically seen this whole debate is pointless and leads to nowhere.

[Regulus]

The thing is, one could completely disregard SP in its entirety for not being canon. All that is truly canon is what is in the first movie. Everything else is open for interpretation.

[SlayerOfLight]

Last time I checked SP was the official sequel to TLK, so if you don't mind I slightly disagree with SP being not canon. Also, all those fan-theorized ''interpretations'' rather belong in fanfictions if you ask me.

[Regulus]

Yeah, okay.

But I don't see any reason for that sort of logic to kill off another good on-topic discussion.

[DGFone]

Last time I checked SP was the official sequel to TLK, so if you don't mind I slightly disagree with SP being not canon. Also, all those fan-theorized ''interpretations'' rather belong in fanfictions if you ask me.

SP is the official squeal only in the words of a Disney department that is separate than the one that made the first movie. Just as TLK: 6NA is also official, because the books were paid for and made by Disney as well. The only reason why SP is "canon" is so that Disney can make more $$$ on boxed sets and what not. So if we are to ignore the very real fact that Disney wants to make more money, "official" theories are no more or less valid than fan theories, providing concrete proof.

In theory: Nuka is Scar's son.
In canon: Nuka isn't Scar's son.

Plus, how is it proven that Nuka is or is not Scar's son in SP? All we know is that he confirmed that Kovu isn't Scar's son, but it doesn't say anything about Nuka himself. I argued before that he might not be Zira's son, but again... what about Scar? There is nothing in SP, aka canon, that proves without doubt that "Nuka isn't Scar's son".

[SlayerOfLight]

SP is the official squeal only in the words of a Disney department that is separate than the one that made the first movie. Just as TLK: 6NA is also official, because the books were paid for and made by Disney as well. The only reason why SP is "canon" is so that Disney can make more $$$ on boxed sets and what not. So if we are to ignore the very real fact that Disney wants to make more money, "official" theories are no more or less valid than fan theories, providing concrete proof.

Well, there's a diffrence between TLK: 6NA and SP. TLK: 6NA are just spin off books that have nothing to do with the official TLK movie universe. And even if the Disney department that produced SP is seperate from the one behind the first TLK movie, it are still they who created SP and not us. We don't even own SP in the first place, so we can't just take fan-based theories and interpretations for facts. Like I said, in theories anything is possible. But a theory remains a theory and is absolutely no fact unless confirmed by the SP creators. They're called ''theories'' for a reason, you know. Unconfirmed Interpretations are not valid in any way and belong in fanfictions, otherwise you're linking fandom with canon. Besides, all the so-called evidence for fan theories are as easily debunked as they are made up.

Plus, how is it proven that Nuka is or is not Scar's son in SP? All we know is that he confirmed that Kovu isn't Scar's son, but it doesn't say anything about Nuka himself. I argued before that he might not be Zira's son, but again... what about Scar? There is nothing in SP, aka canon, that proves without doubt that "Nuka isn't Scar's son".

But the point is: even though it's possible for Nuka to be Scar's son (then again, only in theory) there's still no crucial evidence that directly proves Nuka to be Scar's son. And like I mentioned before all the fan theory supporting proof can be disproven, so I wouldn't really call those ''concrete'' proof at all.

[Carl]

I agree with Nicholas. There's no evidence to support the theory that Nuka is Scar's son, none other than Nuka's slight resemblance to him. Let's face it, Kovu looks more like Scar than Nuka and is said to definitely not be Scar's, so his appearance doesn't mean anything.

Zira is said to have been made ''just a follower,'' so that Kovu and Kiara wouldn't be cousins. Nuka refers to Zira as "mother." Zira treated Nuka like crap basically the whole movie. Neither she nor he would have put up with the other in those circumstances if they were not related by blood, Nuka was too worthless in Zira's eyes for her to have adopted him, so that theory is extremely unlikely.

In addition, the only time Nuka mentions Scar, he refers to him as just that, Scar. As much as Zira idolized Scar, if Nuka was his son, he'd be bragging about it often, he'd be pointing it out, and he'd be complaining even more that she was focusing on someone who wasn't even Scar's son. If he was the son of Scar, Zira probably would have seen him in a better light than she did, and he would have been the one she'd raise to defeat Simba (whether Scar "hand-chose" a cub that was born after his death or not). The REAL son of Scar would have meant more to her than any other cub.

Zira was "just a follower." That is canon. Everything else is a theory, and it's fine to have those, but there is no solid evidence to back up the "Nuka is Scar's son" theory. It's all purely speculation.