Massive School Shooting at an Elementary School

[Regulus]

[quote="TheLionPrince"]Ok......

So what do you guys think of Azdgari's suggestions?

[quote="Azdgari"]
- Limiting legal clip size to 10 (ideally 5 but I think that would be a tough sell) is reasonable.
- More thorough background checks and waiting periods are reasonable.
- Closing the gun show loopholes is not "reasonable", it's a no-brainer.
- More regulation on transfer of guns is reasonable: Your average citizen, without any sort of permit or authorization, should not be able to sell guns. It destroys the point of background checks and undermines basic security.[/quote]

I think they are both reasonable and possible to pass in Congress.[/quote]

I'd also say that banning lethal ammunition should be added, but I'm okay with this. It's several steps in the right direction.

[Woeler]

[quote="TheLionPrince"]Woeler: What if I told you the Netherlands has worse violent crime than the US. And in terms of the top ten, the US is not on the list.[/quote]
This is quite irrelevant. We may have more violent crimes per 100000 citizens, but a violent crime means nobody actually died. Our violent crime can be seen as your ''death by guncrime'' list.

Besides, this list shows that the US has a more than 4x larger average homicide rate.

Yes people may punch each other in the face more on this side of the world, but at least they don't get a piece of lead in the head and die. And in plain numbers the US is still topping the scale

I'm not at all saying that there is no crime here, because there is. The weird thing is: our prisons are so empty we have to actually import criminals from other countries so that the guards and other workers don't lose their jobs.

[quote="DGFone"]And I know that you know that it's true, otherwise you wouldn't tell everyone you can to vote for a political party that tries very hard to ban not guns, but foreigners. When people of different cultures meet, you get trade and the expansion of ideas. You also get war, and the smaller cousin of war is crime.[/quote]
Please, please, please do research when you post something like that. This is like saying all republicans want the homosexual people to be deported. It's a biased, uninformed and an overall incorrect description of the Dutch Freedom Party. They are not trying to ban foreigners at all. One of their biggest points is that ''foreign people who come to the Netherlands and commit severe crimes should be sent back to their own country, because Dutch citizens shouldn't pay for these people''. THAT are the exact words of the Dutch freedom party.

[quote="DGFone"]The difference between the Netherlands and the US is that we are a country of immigrants, while the Dutch are all natives.[/quote]
Nope, 20% immigrants

[quote="DGFone"]And considering that crime in the Netherlands is closely tied to immigration[/quote]
I can't deny that, many of our left-wing douche-bag politicians do deny it, but it's true.
TO ANYONE WHO DARES TO SAY IT'S NOT TRUE: 60.9% of all immigrant youth in the Netherlands have been in police custody at least once. Compare this to the much smaller 9% of Dutch youth. Immigrants (mainly from far Eastern-Europe and the Middle-East) will live with relatively poor standards of life. Outside this develops into a cult of crime.

Just 7 days ago a 51 year old innocent man was severely beaten by two young Moroccans. Why? Just for fun!

Our constitution says we cannot deport official Dutch citizens, but we can deport this kind of foreign scum. (don't get me wrong, there are also immigrants who DO participate in our country, they DO learn the language, they DO get a job, they DO adapt to our culture. And those people get my full respect).

Can't get used to our civilized rules? Byebye, first flight back to the fatherland.
Want a better life? Work for it. Assault innocent Dutch people? Over my dead body!

Just ask my Dutch buddy Nicholas. Immigration + Crime is a very, very big problem here in the Netherlands.

So, DGF, (I suppose the spoiler was removed) if you posted a link or article that linked non-Western immigration with crime. I fully agree with you, 100%. Some cultures are just not equal to our western and civilized culture. The Iranian culture of bloodshed is not at all equal to ours.

Not all cultures are equal, but they should be treated equally.

It's already going to far here:
Pim Fortuyn: Dutch right wing politician, murdered because of his views on immigration.

Do not watch if weak stomach: show

THAT IS OUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH, RIGHT THERE!

Theo van Gogh: Dutch filmmaker, murdered because of his views on Islam.

Do not watch if weak stomach: show

THAT IS OUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH, RIGHT THERE!

Geert Wilders: Current leader of the Dutch Freedom Party, under 24/7 protection. At least 5 bodyguards. He can not go shopping, or go out to have dinner with his wife because of his political views. He gets hundreds of deaththreats a week!

mr Wilders daily life: show

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Former Dutch politician, had to leave the country because of the threats. Also an opponent of Islam and immigration.

We are importing a culture that is threatening the very thing this country was founded on: Freedom of speech and freedom of religion. We are importing a culture that is openly destroying these things and it needs to stop!

Enough is enough!

[quote="DGFone"]If you read what was in the spoiler[/quote]
I don't see a spoiler...

[Azdgari]

[quote="DGFone"]Don't treat the symptoms, cure the disease.[/quote]
That's not very good logic.

[quote]...makes the same kind of criticism about sensible gun laws as does the NRA .... that if a proposal such as making assault weapons and large capacity clips less available or makes background checks more effective is not perfect, then it is not worth pursuing. Of course "bad things" will still happen even if we enact reasonable gun legislation, but it would be good if we could, as a nation, take some steps to reduce the number of those "bad things."[/quote]

What do you do until you cure the disease? Treat the symptoms to make the disease more manageable.

[DGFone]

[quote="Azdgari"][quote="DGFone"]Don't treat the symptoms, cure the disease.[/quote]
That's not very good logic.

[quote]...makes the same kind of criticism about sensible gun laws as does the NRA .... that if a proposal such as making assault weapons and large capacity clips less available or makes background checks more effective is not perfect, then it is not worth pursuing. Of course "bad things" will still happen even if we enact reasonable gun legislation, but it would be good if we could, as a nation, take some steps to reduce the number of those "bad things."[/quote]

What do you do until you cure the disease? Treat the symptoms to make the disease more manageable.[/quote]

Excuse me... WHAT? I'm sorry, I know you mean well, but seeing as I suffer from a chronic disease, let me tell you straight up, from experience:

NEVER TREAT THE SYMPTOMS.

You might stop a symptom temporarily, but in the end, unless you take care of the source, it will come back to haunt you. Either through the symptoms coming back and you won't be able to treat them anymore, or another different symptom will emerge. And I do hope you won't have to experience what it's like to have both new symptoms and the old one be active at the same time.

I repeat: To stop gun crime, banning guns is the wrong solution. The proper solution is to tackle the problems that create all crimes.

[Woeler]

[quote="Azdgari"][quote="DGFone"]Don't treat the symptoms, cure the disease.[/quote]
That's not very good logic.

[quote]...makes the same kind of criticism about sensible gun laws as does the NRA .... that if a proposal such as making assault weapons and large capacity clips less available or makes background checks more effective is not perfect, then it is not worth pursuing. Of course "bad things" will still happen even if we enact reasonable gun legislation, but it would be good if we could, as a nation, take some steps to reduce the number of those "bad things."[/quote]

What do you do until you cure the disease? Treat the symptoms to make the disease more manageable.[/quote]
I may stand with some of your points, but this ''disease'' is not like the flu. It's like cancer. Cure it or die.

[DGFone]

[quote="Woeler"]
I may stand with some of your points, but this ''disease'' is not like the flu. It's like cancer. Cure it or die.[/quote]

Exactly! You don't cure a disease by treating the symptoms. After all, ask a cancer survivor: what was more important? Killing off the cancer cells, or taking pain killers?

Same with crime. Take away the guns, the crime will remain, and guns will be replaced by something else. Don't want people to die from guns? Make it highly undesirable to commit a crime in the first place.

[Woeler]

[quote="DGFone"][quote="Woeler"]
I may stand with some of your points, but this ''disease'' is not like the flu. It's like cancer. Cure it or die.[/quote]

Exactly! You don't cure a disease by treating the symptoms. After all, ask a cancer survivor: what was more important? Killing off the cancer cells, or taking pain killers?[/quote]
Wait...... we agree......

[DGFone]

[quote="Woeler"]
Wait...... we agree......[/quote]

How could this happen?

I do also find it weird/funny how I say something that 99% of people here disagree with, and the one guy to actually understand what I said, let alone agree with, is you.

[OuRaion]

[quote="DGFone"][quote="Woeler"]
Wait...... we agree......[/quote]

How could this happen?

I do also find it weird/funny how I say something that 99% of people here disagree with, and the one guy to actually understand what I said, let alone agree with, is you.[/quote]

IT'S A MIRACLE!

[Woeler]

[quote="DGFone"][quote="Woeler"]
Wait...... we agree......[/quote]

How could this happen?

I do also find it weird/funny how I say something that 99% of people here disagree with, and the one guy to actually understand what I said, let alone agree with, is you.[/quote]
I have no idea, I just understand what you're saying and agree with it... this is creepy.