[quote="DGFone"]But over here, it falls flat on it's face, so for god's sake, stop trying to impose it on us, especially when you yourself already admitted that here in the US, it will be even worse than what we have now.[/quote]
I think it's fair. Ironically, we're the country imposing our capitalist democratic beliefs on the rest of the world. Because, you know, we need to preserve freedom and fight wars on terror and such. Any other way of life is clearly wrong and doesn't work at all, and the rest of the world needs to be cleansed from their crazy socialist beliefs. The world must be made safe for [s]democracy[/s] McDonald's.
Election Day 2012
Re: Election Day 2012
by Regulus » November 4th, 2012, 11:44 pm
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Re: Election Day 2012
by DGFone » November 5th, 2012, 12:01 am
At least I don't have the illusion that I'm not imposing it on others. 
Do I agree with everything our government it doing? Of course not! Do I still support it? Currently, barely. Will I support it more if it will do more of what I think is the right thing> Of course I will. But I won't walk around and tell people "In order for all of us to be united and equal, we need to separate all ethnic groups and classes away from each other (because intermixing will always cause crime) and stay away from each other. Only then will we be able to have a just society where everyone are free to do as they please."
Do I agree with everything our government it doing? Of course not! Do I still support it? Currently, barely. Will I support it more if it will do more of what I think is the right thing> Of course I will. But I won't walk around and tell people "In order for all of us to be united and equal, we need to separate all ethnic groups and classes away from each other (because intermixing will always cause crime) and stay away from each other. Only then will we be able to have a just society where everyone are free to do as they please."
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Re: Election Day 2012
by Woeler » November 5th, 2012, 12:03 am
[quote="DGFone"]At least I don't have the illusion that I'm not imposing it on others.
Do I agree with everything our government it doing? Of course not! Do I still support it? Currently, barely. Will I support it more if it will do more of what I think is the right thing> Of course I will. But I won't walk around and tell people "In order for all of us to be united and equal, we need to separate all ethnic groups and classes away from each other (because intermixing will always cause crime) and stay away from each other. Only then will we be able to have a just society where everyone are free to do as they please."[/quote]
Can't remember I said such a thing... I say fix the poor and the sick and give everybody a fair chance. That's equality, not that weird sentence you just typed nor your current system.
Do I agree with everything our government it doing? Of course not! Do I still support it? Currently, barely. Will I support it more if it will do more of what I think is the right thing> Of course I will. But I won't walk around and tell people "In order for all of us to be united and equal, we need to separate all ethnic groups and classes away from each other (because intermixing will always cause crime) and stay away from each other. Only then will we be able to have a just society where everyone are free to do as they please."[/quote]
Can't remember I said such a thing... I say fix the poor and the sick and give everybody a fair chance. That's equality, not that weird sentence you just typed nor your current system.
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Re: Election Day 2012
by DGFone » November 5th, 2012, 12:09 am
[quote="Woeler1"][quote="DGFone"]At least I don't have the illusion that I'm not imposing it on others.
Do I agree with everything our government it doing? Of course not! Do I still support it? Currently, barely. Will I support it more if it will do more of what I think is the right thing> Of course I will. But I won't walk around and tell people "In order for all of us to be united and equal, we need to separate all ethnic groups and classes away from each other (because intermixing will always cause crime) and stay away from each other. Only then will we be able to have a just society where everyone are free to do as they please."[/quote]
Can't remember I said such a thing... I say fix the poor and the sick and give everybody a fair chance. That's equality, not that weird sentence you just typed nor your current system.[/quote]
No, I just added up all your arguments and what you ever told me. You preach tolerance and peace between everybody. But you support banning Muslims from entering the Netherlands, and want your country to split off from the EU in order to save its own skin.
Unity and helping everyone!
Do I agree with everything our government it doing? Of course not! Do I still support it? Currently, barely. Will I support it more if it will do more of what I think is the right thing> Of course I will. But I won't walk around and tell people "In order for all of us to be united and equal, we need to separate all ethnic groups and classes away from each other (because intermixing will always cause crime) and stay away from each other. Only then will we be able to have a just society where everyone are free to do as they please."[/quote]
Can't remember I said such a thing... I say fix the poor and the sick and give everybody a fair chance. That's equality, not that weird sentence you just typed nor your current system.[/quote]
No, I just added up all your arguments and what you ever told me. You preach tolerance and peace between everybody. But you support banning Muslims from entering the Netherlands, and want your country to split off from the EU in order to save its own skin.
Unity and helping everyone!
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Re: Election Day 2012
by Woeler » November 5th, 2012, 12:13 am
[quote="DGFone"][quote="Woeler1"][quote="DGFone"]At least I don't have the illusion that I'm not imposing it on others.
Do I agree with everything our government it doing? Of course not! Do I still support it? Currently, barely. Will I support it more if it will do more of what I think is the right thing> Of course I will. But I won't walk around and tell people "In order for all of us to be united and equal, we need to separate all ethnic groups and classes away from each other (because intermixing will always cause crime) and stay away from each other. Only then will we be able to have a just society where everyone are free to do as they please."[/quote]
Can't remember I said such a thing... I say fix the poor and the sick and give everybody a fair chance. That's equality, not that weird sentence you just typed nor your current system.[/quote]
No, I just added up all your arguments and what you ever told me. You preach tolerance and peace between everybody. But you support banning Muslims from entering the Netherlands, and want your country to split off from the EU in order to save its own skin.
Unity and helping everyone![/quote]
I preach tolerance to a country that claims to be developed. Don't twist my words, i said radical muslims, which is the same the US does, block radical muslims. Second, splitting from the EU is completely different. Europe is not a country and the EU is not a government. You call yourself the UNITED states. IT IS IN THE NAME! Why not act like it? By far not my views there.
I suggest a namechange to: The Divided States. After that I won't complain, or you could fix the poor.
Do I agree with everything our government it doing? Of course not! Do I still support it? Currently, barely. Will I support it more if it will do more of what I think is the right thing> Of course I will. But I won't walk around and tell people "In order for all of us to be united and equal, we need to separate all ethnic groups and classes away from each other (because intermixing will always cause crime) and stay away from each other. Only then will we be able to have a just society where everyone are free to do as they please."[/quote]
Can't remember I said such a thing... I say fix the poor and the sick and give everybody a fair chance. That's equality, not that weird sentence you just typed nor your current system.[/quote]
No, I just added up all your arguments and what you ever told me. You preach tolerance and peace between everybody. But you support banning Muslims from entering the Netherlands, and want your country to split off from the EU in order to save its own skin.
Unity and helping everyone![/quote]
I preach tolerance to a country that claims to be developed. Don't twist my words, i said radical muslims, which is the same the US does, block radical muslims. Second, splitting from the EU is completely different. Europe is not a country and the EU is not a government. You call yourself the UNITED states. IT IS IN THE NAME! Why not act like it? By far not my views there.
I suggest a namechange to: The Divided States. After that I won't complain, or you could fix the poor.
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Re: Election Day 2012
by DGFone » November 5th, 2012, 12:27 am
[quote="Woeler1"]
I suggest a namechange to: The Divided States. After that I won't complain, or you could fix the poor.[/quote]
Still telling us how to live our lives I see... In the very same topic where you post that you don't do this, and that you only tell of your world view...
Anyways, we might call ourselves the Unite States, but I live in California. Not Texas, not New York, not even my neighboring state of Oregon or Nevada. The U.S. is a nation spanning a continent. THERE IS NO "one size fits all" solution so that me will truly become 'united', as you say. Yes, there are some things that the federal government should do, but but they are few and far in between. Everything else? Leave it to the states if not an even more local level. Sometimes, you might need a different solution for two cities in the same state...
Oh, and uh, the Netherlands also have poor. Perhaps you might want to fix that as well before telling us to fix our own poor...
I suggest a namechange to: The Divided States. After that I won't complain, or you could fix the poor.[/quote]
Still telling us how to live our lives I see... In the very same topic where you post that you don't do this, and that you only tell of your world view...
Anyways, we might call ourselves the Unite States, but I live in California. Not Texas, not New York, not even my neighboring state of Oregon or Nevada. The U.S. is a nation spanning a continent. THERE IS NO "one size fits all" solution so that me will truly become 'united', as you say. Yes, there are some things that the federal government should do, but but they are few and far in between. Everything else? Leave it to the states if not an even more local level. Sometimes, you might need a different solution for two cities in the same state...
Oh, and uh, the Netherlands also have poor. Perhaps you might want to fix that as well before telling us to fix our own poor...
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Re: Election Day 2012
by Azdgari » November 5th, 2012, 12:29 am
[quote="TheLionPrince"][quote="Azdgari"]So you don't believe it's ironic that someone who stands on the stump bellowing about lowering taxes across the board actually plans to, essentially, raise taxes?[/quote]
Not really. Politicians have stating they will do this and that while campaigning, but when in office, they do something else entirely. Now concerning taxes, both Presidents Reagan, H.W. Bush, and Clinton campaigned to not raise taxes, but raised taxes during office. Romney, if elected, will be no exception.[/quote]
Why vote for him if nothing he says is reliable? Which, notably, it is not, as he changes his position unlike any other politician that I've certainly ever seen. He's turned his back on abortion, gay marriage, and climate stances since he governed my state, and gosh, what does that all have in common? It's not on the party platform he wants. So he's happy to sell out his principles as long as he satisfies his party.
Obama campaigned on ending war in Iraq. It is over. He campaigned on killing Osama bin Laden. Bin Laden is dead. He campaigned on saving the economy: it has grown for 31 straight months and is far from the cliff it teetered on, and the deficit is shrinking each year. He campaigned on saving the auto industry: he saved it. He campaigned on environmental issues: he has followed through. He campaigned on cracking down on wall street: he created the financial Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection. He campaigned on revolutionizing health care: whether you like the bill or not, he certainly kept the promise.
Why vote for someone you admit will not do what he says ? Why vote for a chameleonic idealogue like Romney?
@DGFone: quite classic Republican outlook. I like it! Not necessarily my point of view, but that balance of those who tote state power and those who champion federalism is what make our country great. The answer, as always, lies in the middle... and with the Supreme Court, I suppose.
How would you respond to this argument, DGFone: We need federal gun regulation. Allowing individual states to police their guns is irresponsible because some states such as Arizona continue to maintain pathetically weak gun laws that allow dozens of assault weapons to be bought with minimal identification and then never accounted for. Other states allow concealed hand weapons on school grounds. For the sake of argument (and gosh I sure do hope) you believe that these laws are irresponsible. Isn't it the responsibility of the federal government to have the final say and keep our citizens, all of our citizens, safe?
Not really. Politicians have stating they will do this and that while campaigning, but when in office, they do something else entirely. Now concerning taxes, both Presidents Reagan, H.W. Bush, and Clinton campaigned to not raise taxes, but raised taxes during office. Romney, if elected, will be no exception.[/quote]
Why vote for him if nothing he says is reliable? Which, notably, it is not, as he changes his position unlike any other politician that I've certainly ever seen. He's turned his back on abortion, gay marriage, and climate stances since he governed my state, and gosh, what does that all have in common? It's not on the party platform he wants. So he's happy to sell out his principles as long as he satisfies his party.
Obama campaigned on ending war in Iraq. It is over. He campaigned on killing Osama bin Laden. Bin Laden is dead. He campaigned on saving the economy: it has grown for 31 straight months and is far from the cliff it teetered on, and the deficit is shrinking each year. He campaigned on saving the auto industry: he saved it. He campaigned on environmental issues: he has followed through. He campaigned on cracking down on wall street: he created the financial Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection. He campaigned on revolutionizing health care: whether you like the bill or not, he certainly kept the promise.
Why vote for someone you admit will not do what he says ? Why vote for a chameleonic idealogue like Romney?
@DGFone: quite classic Republican outlook. I like it! Not necessarily my point of view, but that balance of those who tote state power and those who champion federalism is what make our country great. The answer, as always, lies in the middle... and with the Supreme Court, I suppose.
How would you respond to this argument, DGFone: We need federal gun regulation. Allowing individual states to police their guns is irresponsible because some states such as Arizona continue to maintain pathetically weak gun laws that allow dozens of assault weapons to be bought with minimal identification and then never accounted for. Other states allow concealed hand weapons on school grounds. For the sake of argument (and gosh I sure do hope) you believe that these laws are irresponsible. Isn't it the responsibility of the federal government to have the final say and keep our citizens, all of our citizens, safe?
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Re: Election Day 2012
by Regulus » November 5th, 2012, 12:38 am
lol, DGF, I've always thought the complete opposite. No need for local and state governments if there's one big government. I've always hated the inconsistencies when living in different states. Especially in the modern era.
Things aren't like they used to be in the 1800s. To go from California to where I live takes about 5 hours. Cultures are much more mixed now, because technology has brought us closer together. Not necessarily in terms of distance, but in terms of time, because it is proportional to speed... yeah, whatever, I'm rambling.
And it does not create violence, per se. What creates violence is a lack of equality. Culture and race are irrelevant.
Things aren't like they used to be in the 1800s. To go from California to where I live takes about 5 hours. Cultures are much more mixed now, because technology has brought us closer together. Not necessarily in terms of distance, but in terms of time, because it is proportional to speed... yeah, whatever, I'm rambling.
And it does not create violence, per se. What creates violence is a lack of equality. Culture and race are irrelevant.
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Re: Election Day 2012
by KentuckyWildcat » November 5th, 2012, 12:40 am
[quote="Woeler1]I argue and debate politics in a respectful way. Debating everything I do not agree with is not a form of disrespect. It pisses me off that people think namecalling makes them superior. And you can be as much non-europe as you like, but before you do that, ask the poor... Freedom should not include the freedom to starve or live on the street. Help the people, all of them. And as long as there are families without a home, education or any other basic needs, there is something wrong with that. Every human deserves a decent life.
A government for the people. Not a people for the government.
If you deny that everyone in the US deserves a decent life. You're not a society. A society is united, not divided. A society works for each other, not for himself. A society helps the poor and treats the sick, not reject them.
We must stop thinking about the individual and start focussing on society.
I think this society suffers so much from too much freedom, too many rights that allow too many people to be too irresponsible. And that is in one sentence what I think. Call me a fool, not an argument. Call me a European, not an argument. Do I have a different worldview? Sure. Does that mean I should shut up? Nope.[/quote]
Since you believe so strongly against namecalling, remember that the next time you're about to call someone ignorant, delusional, etc. You seem to have a habit of it.
Anyway, to the main point of your argument, we're never going to agree. That's OK because the world would be a boring place if everybody thought exactly alike. I will offer a few counterpoints though.
1. You seem convinced that the US is some sort of disaster zone when that's just not the case. Specifically, your comment about education reveals that you don't know certain things about life in America since children are required by law to stay in school at least until high school. As for your comments about the poor, we do make efforts to take care of them. Poverty still exists of course, but it does in Europe too.
Further, it is quite frankly impossible in country as large and diverse as the US to ensure that everyone is on the exact same footing financially. Even if it was, we'll just have to accept that we have differing opinions of what is fair. To you, fair seems to mean giving everyone the same thing. To me, it isn't fair to take away from people who have earned more in order to prop up those who haven't. Such a system discourages innovation and hard work because individuals lack any incentive. Before you assume that I'm completely callous, I do firmly believe in charity. I just don't think that the government should mandate a redistribution of wealth.
2. I also support the freedom to make bad choices. Simply put, since you seem to be advocating a restriction of freedom to do things you deem "irresponsible". Who gets to decide what qualifies as irresponsible though? The government? History has proven that once a government is granted power over an area of it's citizens' lives, it never gives it back. This could theoretically lead to more and more oppression by an increasingly enpowered government. Quite honestly, if people want to be irresponsible, I'm fine with them suffering the consequences for their own choices rather than expecting the government to pick them up.
A government for the people. Not a people for the government.
If you deny that everyone in the US deserves a decent life. You're not a society. A society is united, not divided. A society works for each other, not for himself. A society helps the poor and treats the sick, not reject them.
We must stop thinking about the individual and start focussing on society.
I think this society suffers so much from too much freedom, too many rights that allow too many people to be too irresponsible. And that is in one sentence what I think. Call me a fool, not an argument. Call me a European, not an argument. Do I have a different worldview? Sure. Does that mean I should shut up? Nope.[/quote]
Since you believe so strongly against namecalling, remember that the next time you're about to call someone ignorant, delusional, etc. You seem to have a habit of it.
Anyway, to the main point of your argument, we're never going to agree. That's OK because the world would be a boring place if everybody thought exactly alike. I will offer a few counterpoints though.
1. You seem convinced that the US is some sort of disaster zone when that's just not the case. Specifically, your comment about education reveals that you don't know certain things about life in America since children are required by law to stay in school at least until high school. As for your comments about the poor, we do make efforts to take care of them. Poverty still exists of course, but it does in Europe too.
Further, it is quite frankly impossible in country as large and diverse as the US to ensure that everyone is on the exact same footing financially. Even if it was, we'll just have to accept that we have differing opinions of what is fair. To you, fair seems to mean giving everyone the same thing. To me, it isn't fair to take away from people who have earned more in order to prop up those who haven't. Such a system discourages innovation and hard work because individuals lack any incentive. Before you assume that I'm completely callous, I do firmly believe in charity. I just don't think that the government should mandate a redistribution of wealth.
2. I also support the freedom to make bad choices. Simply put, since you seem to be advocating a restriction of freedom to do things you deem "irresponsible". Who gets to decide what qualifies as irresponsible though? The government? History has proven that once a government is granted power over an area of it's citizens' lives, it never gives it back. This could theoretically lead to more and more oppression by an increasingly enpowered government. Quite honestly, if people want to be irresponsible, I'm fine with them suffering the consequences for their own choices rather than expecting the government to pick them up.
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Re: Election Day 2012
by Regulus » November 5th, 2012, 12:50 am
[quote="KentuckyWildcat"]To me, it isn't fair to take away from people who have earned more in order to prop up those who haven't. Such a system discourages innovation and hard work because individuals lack any incentive. [/quote]
[youtube]/u6XAPnuFjJc[/youtube]
We are humans. We do not need an external reward to desire to improve. It is what we do, naturally.
Anyone who is only doing something to make a quick dollar isn't putting out a quality product anyway. We've all experienced that.
[quote="KentuckyWildcat"]Before you assume that I'm completely callous, I do firmly believe in charity. I just don't think that the government should mandate a redistribution of wealth.[/quote]
Then what do you believe a government should do? If a government should not help to support its people, it exists instead to ______.
Please, help me out here. I really don't understand that.
[youtube]/u6XAPnuFjJc[/youtube]
We are humans. We do not need an external reward to desire to improve. It is what we do, naturally.
Anyone who is only doing something to make a quick dollar isn't putting out a quality product anyway. We've all experienced that.
[quote="KentuckyWildcat"]Before you assume that I'm completely callous, I do firmly believe in charity. I just don't think that the government should mandate a redistribution of wealth.[/quote]
Then what do you believe a government should do? If a government should not help to support its people, it exists instead to ______.
Please, help me out here. I really don't understand that.
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