Lion King for adults-Some observations from the Cat

[Noa]

If you ask me, TLK could be interpreted as a thinly veiled representation of the Russian or French Revolutions. The Pride Landers are the nobility (upper class), the animals that live in the Pride Lands are the bourgeois (middle class), the hyenas are the working class and Scar is the one who was born into privileged life, a clear advantage over his hyena brethren, but chose to rebel against the system and seize power.

I wouldn't say that the hyenas are distinctive of minorities, but are the uneducated working class who are disadvantaged by the Pride Landers. Simba is that lion who returns everything to moderation. Of course, the movie isn't exactly point to point precise on the process of revolution, but I just caught the similarities. Point is, I've never really thought of the hyenas as black youth. I've always figured they were supposed to be a representation of the common working person. Take of that what you will, considering their behaviour and role.

Scar is a wily, sarcastic sort and that's expressed hand in hand with his body language and personality which in turn establishes his character. Yes, his mannerisms are eccentric at best but isn't everyone eccentric to some degree?

[Regulus]

[quote="KentuckyWildcat"]First, simply put, his apparent lack of heterosexual interest doesn't automatically make him homosexual either. To me, he seems more or less asexual, which is different. He's so self-absorbed that it seems highly unlikely that he would be interested in pursuing a true relationship with another lion of either sex.[/quote]

Yeah, that's what I've always thought.

[DGFone]

Well, Scar did try to rape Nala, so he is straight, at least for ambitious reasons. Although I think that for all goods and purposes, he doesn't really care who he's with or how, just as long that it benefits him in the short and/or long term. This is why he sided with the hyenas even though he's supposed to hate them: They are great tools for coups. Large in numbers, fairly brain dead... the perfect machines for Scar to use.

As for other lions, Zazu did have to mention that Mufasa had a great queen to help stay loved by his subjects, so I doubt that Scar was interested in her, nor anyone else, until he realized that he needed offspring if he were to become 'immortal'.

[TheBlackCatCrossing]

^I always found it weird that Scar did not choose a Queen as soon as he became ruler. For the longest time, I assumed it was because he was so mean. I also can't see Scar "forcing" himself on a lioness, save for the deleted scene and he was mentally unstable then. Believe it or not, I actually still subscribe to the theory that he is a sociopath who doesn't care for romance/marriage. However, it's very, very hard for me to see that after watching "Be prepared".

Lord, Scar is such a diva! LOL!!


Great comments, everyone! Keep 'em coming!!!

[cleargreenwater]

I don't know, truth is while there's every possibility that Scar might be interpreted as gay and obviously can be, it still doesn't fundamentally changing my understanding of either the movie, the character, or his actions in any significant way. Compelling for fanfiction, but as far as concerns the criticism of the film based on villifying an effeminite character, vamp can't get a break anywhere, I feel they ignore the relatively positive reflection of a much more obviously gay-interpreted couple in Timon & Pumbaa, who are clearly the better PR for the GLBT community than is available in most cartoons

[cleargreenwater]

[quote="Noa"]If you ask me, TLK could be interpreted as a thinly veiled representation of the Russian or French Revolutions. The Pride Landers are the nobility (upper class), the animals that live in the Pride Lands are the bourgeois (middle class), the hyenas are the working class and Scar is the one who was born into privileged life, a clear advantage over his hyena brethren, but chose to rebel against the system and seize power.

I wouldn't say that the hyenas are distinctive of minorities, but are the uneducated working class who are disadvantaged by the Pride Landers. Simba is that lion who returns everything to moderation. Of course, the movie isn't exactly point to point precise on the process of revolution, but I just caught the similarities. Point is, I've never really thought of the hyenas as black youth. I've always figured they were supposed to be a representation of the common working person. Take of that what you will, considering their behaviour and role.[/quote]

I can completely understand that interpretation and do entirely agree with it, however I can see why the racial interpretation was more of a difficult one critically. In 1994 race was a bit more raw to most Americans than Socialism/Communism.

[TheBlackCatCrossing]

[quote="cleargreenwater"]I don't know, truth is while there's every possibility that Scar might be interpreted as gay and obviously can be, it still doesn't fundamentally changing my understanding of either the movie, the character, or his actions in any significant way. Compelling for fanfiction, but as far as concerns the criticism of the film based on villifying an effeminite character, vamp can't get a break anywhere, I feel they ignore the relatively positive reflection of a much more obviously gay-interpreted couple in Timon & Pumbaa, who are clearly the better PR for the GLBT community than is available in most cartoons [/quote]

I forgot to respond to this, CGW.

I know that Timon and Pumbaa are considered the first "official" gay couple in Disney (according to Nathan Lane), but I just cannot get behind that. This primarily stems from the fact that one half of the duo is a walking fart joke. To me they are more clowns than respectable representatives of the LGBT community. Sure, they are the good characters and can serve a positive model but personally, I get annoyed how they steal the whole show, even with this very subject we are talking about.

Not a put down, CGW. I can see where you feel that way and totally respect it.

A few months ago, I was on tumblr and saw this hilarious and cute GIF someone made that said something along the lines of 'Proof that gay parents can raise a kid with no problems'. The first image was of Timon/Pumbaa and Simba. The other image was of Baloo and Bagheera. I'll try to look for it.

[cleargreenwater]

^ No, no problem. I'm just getting a little unhappy because I feel like you're fixating a bit on the Scar is gay idea (which in itself is great for fan mileage,) at the expense of the original criticism that spawned it, which was saying Disney was villifying gay and/or effeminancy in the figure of Scar.

There's no reason to interpret Timon & Pumbaa as gay any more than there is to interpret Scar as gay, but they're a hella lot more positive or at least not doing harm. The last thing anyone needs is one more "angry repressed gay or effeminite villian" boogey-men lurking in the proverbial closet which would validate the criticism, even though there's a strong cultural tradition towards similiar figures being objects of horror already that may have subconsciously informed the creation of Scar. Timon & Pumbaa at least are loved by children and are a good argument for the film.

[TheBlackCatCrossing]

[quote="cleargreenwater"]
There's no reason to interpret Timon & Pumbaa as gay any more than there is to interpret Scar as gay, but they're a hella lot more positive or at least not doing harm. The last thing anyone needs is one more "angry repressed gay or effeminite villian" boogey-men lurking in the proverbial closet which would validate the criticism, even though there's a strong cultural tradition towards similiar figures being objects of horror already that may have subconsciously informed the creation of Scar. Timon & Pumbaa at least are loved by children and are a good argument for the film.[/quote]


You have legitimate concerns and I totally respect that because I have seen this echoed in other places.

You are right: the repressed homo as the villain is a tired trope but there are a few reasons why I prefer the "bad" narcissistic aristocrat over "good" two clowns.

1. Scar is sophisticated. Timon and Pumbaa are two obnoxious buffoons.

2. Scar: Like a boss. Even if he is effeminate, he is still dangerous. Pumbaa: Walking fart joke. No contest there. :p

Ultimately, what gets me is 'power' and how one presents themselves. Also, Timon and Pumbaa are not without their blatant weaknesses which makes me feel very 'meh' about them as 'positive' examples of queer characters:

a) Timon's disrespect of Mufasa during the 'star sequence'. (I could never forgive him for that!)
b) Pumbaa being a little too slow. (If it makes you feel better, I prefer the hyenas as the 'comic relief', not Timon and Pumbaa).
c) Timon's obnoxious overreaction to Simba and Nala heterosexuality (Stereotype)
d) They both represent gluttony.

I guess what it all boils down to is that I find T&P tired and overexposed and genuinely don't care about them ANYMORE. They pretty much represented LK and that kind of annoyed me even as a kid because I preferred the majestic lions over them. Yes, I am biased, I do like my baddies. There, that's my sin to confess.

I hope we can still be friends.

[cleargreenwater]

[quote="TheBlackCatCrossing"][quote="cleargreenwater"]
There's no reason to interpret Timon & Pumbaa as gay any more than there is to interpret Scar as gay, but they're a hella lot more positive or at least not doing harm. The last thing anyone needs is one more "angry repressed gay or effeminite villian" boogey-men lurking in the proverbial closet which would validate the criticism, even though there's a strong cultural tradition towards similiar figures being objects of horror already that may have subconsciously informed the creation of Scar. Timon & Pumbaa at least are loved by children and are a good argument for the film.[/quote]


You have legitimate concerns and I totally respect that because I have seen this echoed in other places.

You are right: the repressed homo as the villain is a tired trope but there are a few reasons why I prefer the "bad" narcissistic aristocrat over "good" two clowns.

1. Scar is sophisticated. Timon and Pumbaa are two obnoxious buffoons.

2. Scar: Like a boss. Even if he is effeminate, he is still dangerous. Pumbaa: Walking fart joke. No contest there. :p

Ultimately, what gets me is 'power' and how one presents themselves. Also, Timon and Pumbaa are not without their blatant weaknesses which makes me feel very 'meh' about them as 'positive' examples of queer characters:

a) Timon's disrespect of Mufasa during the 'star sequence'. (I could never forgive him for that!)
b) Pumbaa being a little too slow. (If it makes you feel better, I prefer the hyenas as the 'comic relief', not Timon and Pumbaa).
c) Timon's obnoxious overreaction to Simba and Nala heterosexuality (Stereotype)
d) They both represent gluttony.

I guess what it all boils down to is that I find T&P tired and overexposed and genuinely don't care about them ANYMORE. They pretty much represented LK and that kind of annoyed me even as a kid because I preferred the majestic lions over them. Yes, I am biased, I do like my baddies. There, that's my sin to confess.

I hope we can still be friends.
[/quote]

And what it boils down to for me is basically that I've read one too many self-important fanfics (not necessarily LK ones, Harry Potter series Draco Malfoy, Voldemort, etc ones come to mind as the worst offenders,) belaboring homosexual villians and I wish people would think about what they're contributing to more and if it's really necessary. Scar and Catwoman can also move the same because their mannerisms are both based on sleek cats, and Timon & Pumbaa might be buffoons but kids don't go to bed afraid of them either; and Timon's selfishness actually appeals in a relateable way to children and fans with Aspergers. They are loved, not feared, even if they're less interesting to adult fans.

And seriously no worries. I "internet grew up" on this (now a ghosttown of a few years) site called Lilymud, you have NO IDEA. There were **constant** fierce revolving debates/arguments about religion, gender, sexuality, race, evolution that this place honestly wouldn't be able to host, and that's probably a good thing and why its a more fun community that hasn't imploded like Lilymud did. But I have realized in the last 3-5 days just how lying dormant since that time & place and dying for exercise that old Lilymud part of me was, and things here usually get shot in the foot before reaching anything like that level of debate/discussion. I feel nostaligic and wistful actually even as I rue just how much of my past life I used to waste on the internet