Rumors of the Cub at the end of The Lion King

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[quote="atouchofgrace"][quote="SilverSimba01"]I guess they though that TLK was going to be another great movie, but not as big as we know it[/quote]
Jeffrey Katzenberg said "Pocahontas is a home run, it's West Side Story, it's Romeo and Juliet with american indians. It's a hit. It has "hit" written all over it. TLK on the other hand it's kind of an experiment, we don't really know if anybody is gonna really want to see it."
Thomas Schumacher said "no one had faith in TLK".
Even when the movie was completed, the crew beleived it was "going to be a hit or a huge flop."[/quote]
Yeah. They certainly didn't have sequels in mind at the time.

[atouchofgrace]

[quote="QueenOfPrideRock"][quote="atouchofgrace"][quote="SilverSimba01"]I guess they though that TLK was going to be another great movie, but not as big as we know it[/quote]
Jeffrey Katzenberg said "Pocahontas is a home run, it's West Side Story, it's Romeo and Juliet with american indians. It's a hit. It has "hit" written all over it. TLK on the other hand it's kind of an experiment, we don't really know if anybody is gonna really want to see it."
Thomas Schumacher said "no one had faith in TLK".
Even when the movie was completed, the crew beleived it was "going to be a hit or a huge flop."[/quote]
Yeah. They certainly didn't have sequels in mind at the time.[/quote]
At the time, DTV Disney sequels were not being made. That started with "Return of Jafar" in 1994 to milk the cash cow, right?

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Ah. Well,yeah.

[SummerSnowLeopard]

Um...ok.

Kopa is the TLK cub!

[StarlightLioness]

When SP first came out, I was under the impression that the cub was just Kiara. Sure the books said that Simba had a son, but I just chalked it up to "well, they didn't expect a sequel when the books came out, so it's just a minor error.

Then, once I got TLK6NA box set, there was Kopa. And I kind of started to think that maybe the cub WAS Kopa. Certainly, Simba and Nala are older when Kiara is presented (as compared to the presented cub at the end of TLK). Also, Kiara is by FAR an older cub than "Fluffy" is. (Watch when she swipes at the butterfly or whatever - her expression is very mature for a cub). And little hints in the dialogue made me think that the intial cub was Kopa and that he was murdered.

Zazu talks about "murderous" outsiders. So who did they kill? Sarabi maybe but it could lean towards a murdered Prince too. Simba talks about how you "can't turn your back" on the outsiders. Again, it makes me think that maybe the Outlanders were responsible for his first cub's death. When Kiara asks "why?" Simba says "never mind." Kiara is too young at the time to know about the brother she never knew and it is too painful for Simba to get into anyway. Simba is also wildly overprotective of Kiara. Fatherly instinct? Maybe. Or does he fear losing another cub. When Zira and Simba first meet when Kovu and Kiara are playing, she pushes her son to him offering "if you need your pound of flesh." Why would Simba demand such a high price of those caught in the Pridelands? Why not just chase them off when they break their exile? Is he THAT harsh of a ruler or does he have a good reason to demand such a repayment? Sure, you can argue that he fears exactly what Zira has in mind (that is a hostile and deadly overthrow). And I am sure that such thoughts ARE a part of Simba's actions. But it seems to me that that cannot possibly be the entire reason why Simba acts/says what he does. There must be another reason.

And so, I am now of the mindset that the cub at the end of TLK is, in fact, Kopa. I do not for one second believe that it is Kiara.

I also agree that Kiara was written as a female in SP to a) make SP a different movie (father-daugther as opposed to another father-son romp) and to b) appeal more to female viewers (especially considering how love-heavy the movie is).

[SimbasGuard]

[quote="StarlightLioness"]Zazu talks about "murderous" outsiders. So who did they kill? Sarabi maybe but it could lean towards a murdered Prince too. Simba talks about how you "can't turn your back" on the outsiders. Again, it makes me think that maybe the Outlanders were responsible for his first cub's death. When Kiara asks "why?" Simba says "never mind." Kiara is too young at the time to know about the brother she never knew and it is too painful for Simba to get into anyway. Simba is also wildly overprotective of Kiara. Fatherly instinct? Maybe. Or does he fear losing another cub. When Zira and Simba first meet when Kovu and Kiara are playing, she pushes her son to him offering "if you need your pound of flesh." Why would Simba demand such a high price of those caught in the Pridelands? Why not just chase them off when they break their exile? Is he THAT harsh of a ruler or does he have a good reason to demand such a repayment? Sure, you can argue that he fears exactly what Zira has in mind (that is a hostile and deadly overthrow). And I am sure that such thoughts ARE a part of Simba's actions. But it seems to me that that cannot possibly be the entire reason why Simba acts/says what he does. There must be another reason.[/quote]
I have always believed that the cub in Lion King 1 was intended to be a boy, but when they altered the story They simply wanted we the fans to accept that the cub at the end of Lion King 1 is Kiara.
However You have presented a very very compelling theory, I've heard the Zira killed Kopa theory many times before, but you shine a different light on it. The only problem I have then is if Zira did kill Kopa how would Simba be content to just banish Zira and those loyal to Scar? I personally think he would have been out for at least Zira's blood. I know it has been suggested by others that Simba couldn't bare to orphan Nuka, but If he knew that she killed his son I don't see how he could bare to let Zira live?

[Nitro]

The cub at the end of TLK could have been anybody, really. Who says his only male cub is Kopa? The directors could have been creating an entirely different son for Simba when the idea of Kiara popped up. My theory is that the cub was a male Kiara, which they changed to female to better fit the plot.

Besides, if the Erin Hunters could do it to Rowanclaw, why can't they do it to Kiara?

[StarlightLioness]

[quote="SimbasGuard"][quote="StarlightLioness"]Zazu talks about "murderous" outsiders. So who did they kill? Sarabi maybe but it could lean towards a murdered Prince too. Simba talks about how you "can't turn your back" on the outsiders. Again, it makes me think that maybe the Outlanders were responsible for his first cub's death. When Kiara asks "why?" Simba says "never mind." Kiara is too young at the time to know about the brother she never knew and it is too painful for Simba to get into anyway. Simba is also wildly overprotective of Kiara. Fatherly instinct? Maybe. Or does he fear losing another cub. When Zira and Simba first meet when Kovu and Kiara are playing, she pushes her son to him offering "if you need your pound of flesh." Why would Simba demand such a high price of those caught in the Pridelands? Why not just chase them off when they break their exile? Is he THAT harsh of a ruler or does he have a good reason to demand such a repayment? Sure, you can argue that he fears exactly what Zira has in mind (that is a hostile and deadly overthrow). And I am sure that such thoughts ARE a part of Simba's actions. But it seems to me that that cannot possibly be the entire reason why Simba acts/says what he does. There must be another reason.[/quote]
I have always believed that the cub in Lion King 1 was intended to be a boy, but when they altered the story They simply wanted we the fans to accept that the cub at the end of Lion King 1 is Kiara.
However You have presented a very very compelling theory, I've heard the Zira killed Kopa theory many times before, but you shine a different light on it. The only problem I have then is if Zira did kill Kopa how would Simba be content to just banish Zira and those loyal to Scar? I personally think he would have been out for at least Zira's blood. I know it has been suggested by others that Simba couldn't bare to orphan Nuka, but If he knew that she killed his son I don't see how he could bare to let Zira live?[/quote]


I was under the impression that they just pulled the old switcheroo with the cubs too. But that wouldn't explain why the cub is suddenly older in the SP presentation and why Simba and Nala look older. It could just be really poor continuity.

I'm not 100% on the Zira-killed-Kopa theory. I do agree that Simba would have killed Zira rather than banish her if he could prove that she killed his son. So maybe he couldn't prove it. Or maybe she was only indirectly involved in Kopa's death. Or Zira got someone else to do her dirty work. I mean, she spends YEARS training Kovu to kill Simba only to wind up fighting Simba herself in the final battle because Kovu isn't there. I think Zira is criminially insane but lacks the backbone to do the dirty work herself unless she is forced to.

I agree with Nitro too. The cub really could be anyone. We assume that it is Kopa because it is the only other cub name associated with Simba. But again, unless it is really poor continuity in the animation, I have my doubts that it is Kiara at the end of TLK.

[AdAstrα]

I'm finding it hard to believe that it's just a continuity error, I mean look at Simba! In SP, he looks quite a lot older than he did at the end of TLK. He's more muscular, his mane has grown etc. And I really don't think it's a coincidence, I think the film makers deliberately chose to make him look that much older for some reason. Does this reason involve Kopa? Maybe. It's not impossible.

[SimbasGuard]

[quote="StarlightLioness"]I'm not 100% on the Zira-killed-Kopa theory. I do agree that Simba would have killed Zira rather than banish her if he could prove that she killed his son. So maybe he couldn't prove it. Or maybe she was only indirectly involved in Kopa's death. Or Zira got someone else to do her dirty work. I mean, she spends YEARS training Kovu to kill Simba only to wind up fighting Simba herself in the final battle because Kovu isn't there. I think Zira is criminially insane but lacks the backbone to do the dirty work herself unless she is forced to.

I agree with Nitro too. The cub really could be anyone. We assume that it is Kopa because it is the only other cub name associated with Simba. But again, unless it is really poor continuity in the animation, I have my doubts that it is Kiara at the end of TLK.[/quote]

Very good point, I hand not considered the possibility of Zira only masterminding Kopa's (If that was what the film creators were going to call him) death. I very much like the idea of there being a Lion King story that Disney has eluded to but not created, but unfortunately the poor continuity theory is very easy to believe. I would love it if Disney were to prove me wrong.