Kopa

[TheDoctor]

What a discussion; a few years ago few people knew that there even was a Kopa

Kopa in particular is pretty controversial in himself, since he is very popular but doesn't have a place in the canon universe. According to the filmmakers, Simba never had a son. That is canon and you really can't argue with that (saying this because to me it looks like there are people who do). They considered giving Kiara an older brother, yes, but officially there is only Kiara. Only Kiara. And those are the facts. Now wait with the pitchforks and torches until I'm done. See, you can decide to not care but at least be aware. (hey, it rhymes)

Kopa is "semi-canon". Along with Ahadi, Uru, Mheetu, Bhati, Ni, Kula, Chumvi, Tama, Zollo, King Joe, Rafiki's fat cousin/relative, Pumbaa's possible girlfriend, Mufasa's monkey assistant (whose names escape me) and all the other named or unnamed characters who have appeared in Disney concept art, books or comics. They did not appear in the films and only the films are canon but Disney still technically owns these characters, thus semi-canon.

If I read what SBS posted about the TLK6NA author is correct, he could very well be a fanfiction writer who was lucky and got his work published by Disney. But we don't know that either. It's possible, but we don't know. Or actually, now that I think about it, any TLK-related stories or characters created after the release of the first film could technically be fan made. Because the people who made those things must've at some point thought "Oh, yeah, The Lion King. I quite like that film. I think I'll make a [comic/book/drawing/sequel film] for it." (more or less xP), alternatively "Oh, yeah, The Lion King. People quite like that film. I think I'll ask someone working here on my Disney magazine/children's book publishing company to make a story for it to earn some money." and some were lucky and got recognised It would then have started out as fan made, but got the official Disney stamp on it afterwards. Is this was SBS was saying?

Aaand for the record, I like Kopa C: I'm with the general fandom's opinion that a son of Simba existed and that he disappeared because of Zira and that this is the reason for Simba's behaviour in SP. It really makes so much sense. Much more sense than "I will banish you just because you like Scar!" xP

Edit: I think I contradict myself at least once here. Oh, well, it's already a long enough opening post, more food for discussion xP

[SnowyCheetah]

[quote="Azdgari"]SBS has as much right to his opinion as does anyone else, guys. ^^[/quote]

He's done that, times a thousand, and then some

[SuperBabySimba]

SnowyCheetah, so have you and other Kopa fans. You've repeated the same opinions and interpretation a 1000+ times. So, fix your own broken record, or stop complaining about mine.

[quote="FlipMode"][quote="SuperBabySimba"][quote="Azdgari"]Kopa was ignored and they instead used Kiara because a female cub fit the story they wanted.[/quote]

I can't see that as the reason. Because their story's essence is Romeo & Juliet and they could've just as easily made Simba & Nala "Romeo"'s parents and Zira "Juliet"'s parent (as she had a daufgrer anyway.) So, I'm guessing the reason for making Fluffy a girl is something else.
[/quote]

Yeah they could have just as easily, but they did not and this makes what Azdgari said more likely true.
Just saying that if they could just as easily made Simbas Cub a male, and Zira's female then by that same point the same applies the other way around and happens to be what they chose to do.
If there is another reason for making Fluffy a girl, then what could it be?[/quote]

I already suggested in another post. Perhaps they simply wanted to take refreshing point of view (seeing to TLK story) or just generally make the storyline colourful by having one movie about a Pridelenader prince and one about a Pridelander princess. Azdgari claimed that Kiara/girl fits their story better than Kopa/boy, but I don't see how?

[quote="Azdgari"]But... how can something distributed by Disney be fan made? If it's released as Disney merchandise, it's not fan made. Therefor, it's extended universe. Third time I've said this, and I'm still not sure how you're arguing against it. From debater to debater, a short poignant paragraph is much more effective than a wall of text 'brute force' argument... can you possibly simplify what you're saying a little? Or maybe I'm just dumb and like to read shorter posts... xD[/quote]

A book getting a Disney stamp on it doesn't change the book's creation process. As in if a book was created and written by a fan, it remains fan-made no matter what happens to it after it was finished. Disney's stamp appearing on it changed only its status in officiality, not who made it.

[quote="TheDoctor"]Kopa is "semi-canon". Along with Ahadi, Uru, Mheetu, Bhati, Ni, Kula, Chumvi, Tama, Zollo, King Joe, Rafiki's fat cousin/relative, Pumbaa's possible girlfriend, Mufasa's monkey assistant (whose names escape me) and all the other named or unnamed characters who have appeared in Disney concept art, books or comics. They did not appear in the films and only the films are canon but Disney still technically owns these characters, thus semi-canon.[/quote]

To me 'semi' refers to that something is in another media format or story seeing to the main source, and 'canon' that something is created into the canon or approved and tied into it by the canon's creators. Thus, to me, what is not approved and tied into the canon by the canon's actual creators (in this case the film's makers), is not actually part of the canon, and thus can not carry the term 'canon' in its definition.

[quote="TheDoctor"]I'm with the general fandom's opinion that a son of Simba existed and that he disappeared because of Zira and that this is the reason for Simba's behaviour in SP. It really makes so much sense. Much more sense than "I will banish you just because you like Scar!" xP[/quote]

The last mentioned reason makes all the sense in the world to me:

- Simba's exiled at approximately the age of 10, by Scar, at the moment he was still crying a river over his father's body.
- He goes through horrid emotional, psychological and physical torture lost in the desert for couple of days. He nearly dies after all that suffering.
- He is rescued by couple of scoundrels. He never truly grows up during his years in the exile because his friends are immature and he has no one is there to actually raise him and guide him into adulthood and parenthood or even into kingship.
- All that time he tries to surpress all the pain and woe and insecureness by his motto 'Hakuna Matata' but fails. While all that time he believes Scar is his friend and that he is taking good care of Pridelands. (Hence, in the exile situation Scar gave the impression he is his friend, and Simba was surprised/shocked to hear that Scar had given the Pridelands to hyena and destroyed it.)
- Then, all the sudden he is yanked away from all that he felt was safe for the person he had become. ("How can I go back? I'm not who I used to be!" "I know what I must do, but it's so hard to face the past. I ran from it for so long.")
- He learns that Scar had murdered Mufasa and blamed it on him (Simba), that Scar was intnetionally the cause of all the extreme and utter pain and suffering Simba had gone through for all those years which Scar himself had been destroying his home, striking his mother and letting his family starve to death.
- Add to that utter hurt, pain and bitterness, how Simba indeed hadn't grown up inside, and he had been all the sudden yanked into huge responsibilities of an adult and a king and then there turns out to be new lions who are Scar's heir or downright support Scar, this horrid betrayer and murderer who showed him a wolf can lurk in every guise. Of course he's gonna exile them. He's a freakin emotional and psychological mess, and an immature and insecure adult and king, who just tries to protect his family.
- All this resulrs into his over-protectiveness of Kiara as well. Especially as Kiara is also bound to get in trouble because she's just like he used to be as a cub.

To me the first film's base alone makes all the sense in the world to Simba's behaviour and choices in SP and seeing to the amount and depth of those events and experiences, there is absolutely no need for any more drama in order for the behaviour to be what it is.

[SnowyCheetah]

There would be no "broken records" had you not started playing yours

[TheDoctor]

[quote="SuperBabySimba"]Perhaps they simply wanted to take refreshing point of view (seeing to TLK story) or just generally make the storyline colourful by having one movie about a Pridelenader prince and one about a Pridelander princess.[/quote]
That is pretty close to the truth I believe. I'm sure I heard something along the lines of the first film being about "father and son" (which would've made Simba having a son at the end of the film really fitting with both that theme and the Circle of Life theme - personal thought) and the new people decided to make the sequel about father and daughter for a bit of variation... or something. I can't remember where I read or heard it from now...

[quote="SuperBabySimba"]To me 'semi' refers to that something is in another media format or story seeing to the main source, and 'canon' that something is created into the canon or approved and tied into it by the canon's creators. Thus, to me, what is not approved and tied into the canon by the canon's actual creators (in this case the film's makers), is not actually part of the canon, and thus can not carry the term 'canon' in its definition.[/quote]
True, true. I reckon it's a good term for that group of characters though, and it's one that is fairly widely used in the fandom so plenty of people know what you mean if you say "semi-canon" or "subcanon".

[quote="SuperBabySimba"]To me the first film's base alone makes all the sense in the world to Simba's behaviour and choices in SP and seeing to the amount and depth of those events and experiences, there is absolutely no need for any more drama in order for the behaviour to be what it is.[/quote]
Why, good one. I like that, it's strangely refreshing, haha.

[SuperBabySimba]

[quote="SnowyCheetah"]There would be no "broken records" had you not started playing yours [/quote]

Lol. Again, get your facts straight before saying something like that. Kopa has existed since 1994 and theories related to him naturaally just as long. Whereas I heard of Kopa for the first time only a year ago. And this forum has existed since 2002 if I remember correctly, whereas I've been on this forum only since June 2010. My broken record couldn't possibly be the first one to play.

And that's how I learned about Kopa: by the broken record of Kopa fans. All the same old "Zira killed Kopa" or "Kopa ran away" or "Kopa was kidnapped" theories being thrown around and every time I saw someone question it, a Kopa fan posts the same old arguments and refuse to listen to reason, and thus their broken record keeps on playing instead of them finding one of new ideas.

[quote="TheDoctor"]I'm sure I heard something along the lines of the first film being about "father and son" (which would've made Simba having a son at the end of the film really fitting with both that theme and the Circle of Life theme - personal thought) and the new people decided to make the sequel about father and daughter for a bit of variation... or something. I can't remember where I read or heard it from now...[/quote]

But the film would be about a father and son even if Simba didn't have a cub at all. And as the cub's creators didn't refer to it as 'he' and didn't say it's a male and gave it a unisex nickname, only proves that it's existence is not relevant/essential to that theme of the film but is there only for the solid purpose of concluding the Circle of Life--in whichever gender a viewer wants to imagine it.

[quote="TheDoctor"][quote="SuperBabySimba"]To me the first film's base alone makes all the sense in the world to Simba's behaviour and choices in SP and seeing to the amount and depth of those events and experiences, there is absolutely no need for any more drama in order for the behaviour to be what it is.[/quote]
Why, good one. I like that, it's strangely refreshing, haha.[/quote]

Thanks. =)

[SnowyCheetah]

[quote="SuperBabySimba"][quote="SnowyCheetah"]There would be no "broken records" had you not started playing yours [/quote]

Lol. Again, get your facts straight before saying something like that. Kopa has existed since 1994 and theories related to him naturaally just as long. Whereas I heard of Kopa for the first time only a year ago. And this forum has existed since 2002 if I remember correctly, whereas I've been on this forum on since June 2010. My broken record couldn't possibly be the first one to play.

And that's how I learned about Kopa: by the broken record of Kopa fans. All the same old "Zira killed Kopa" or "Kopa ran away" or "Kopa was kidnapped" theories being thrown around and every time I saw someone question it, a Kopa fan posts the same old arguments and refuse to listen to reason, and thus their broken record keeps on playing instead of them finding one of new ideas.

[quote="TheDoctor"]I'm sure I heard something along the lines of the first film being about "father and son" (which would've made Simba having a son at the end of the film really fitting with both that theme and the Circle of Life theme - personal thought) and the new people decided to make the sequel about father and daughter for a bit of variation... or something. I can't remember where I read or heard it from now...[/quote]

But the film would be about a father and son even if Simba didn't have a cub at all. And as the cub's creators didn't refer to it as 'he' and didn't say it's a male and gave it a unisex nickname, only proves that it's existence is not relevant/essential to that theme of the film but is there only for the solid purpose of concluding the Circle of Life--in whichever gender a viewer wants to imagine it.[/quote]

I love how you jumped right into a Kopa argument again. #seewhatimtalkingabout

[SuperBabySimba]

SnowyCheetah, hello, the topic of our argument was the broken records about Kopa, so how could my argument not be about Kopa? As in, I didn't jump into anything--I stayed on topic.

As for my argument with TheDoctor--it's not even about Kopa in particular but just about if the cub was a male for the reason TheDoctor thinks.

[Azdgari]

...I still don't get it.

Disney material is not fanon. If something is released with a Disney seal and distributed by Disney, it's not fanon. It's extended universe. That's the nature of the thing. It's irrelevant who it was created by, it is Disney material which makes it official in the TLK extended universe. You champion facts over opinions; that is the fact. =P

Official disney material is not fanon, therefor, Kopa is an extended universe character. Right? That's all I'm arguing, and I can't figure out what you're arguing against it. Your arguments tend to get lost in these massive walls of information (not criticizing, just observing! I'm actually very interested in what you have to say and I think your arguments when I can decipher them are typically observant and sound) and it can be hard to figure out where you're going with your posts! So could you humor people like me with little brains and be a bit more concise, if possible? Thankies. =]

Snowy, leave him alone. He's being a productive, intellectual member of this discussion; that's not against the rules. If people don't want to hear what he has to say... don't come to the topic? =P

[SnowyCheetah]

[quote="SuperBabySimba"]SnowyCheetah, hello, the topic of our argument was the broken records about Kopa, so how could my argument not be about Kopa? As in, I didn't jump into anything--I stayed on topic.

As for my argument with TheDoctor--it's not even about Kopa in particular but just about if the cub was a male for the reason TheDoctor thinks.[/quote]

You obviously don't see it and never will, you're always coming up with twisted reasoning for your behavior. If you would see it and stop, we'd all be much happier discussing Kopa.