Fluffy?

[FlipMode]

Facts? It is also a fact that the world could end tomorrow, but I do not live in constant fear of it, just because the factsare there it does not mean people can not believe anything else, it is called imagination.

[SuperBabySimba]

[quote="FlipMode"]Facts? It is also a fact that the world could end tomorrow, but I do not live in constant fear of it, just because the factsare there it does not mean people can not believe anything else, it is called imagination.[/quote]

Not exactly the best analogy. The end of the world is nowhere near as hard and solid fact as Fluffy not being Kopa, is. The world ending tomorrow is a fact of what might be, Fluffy not being Kopa is a fact of what is. And I haven't even said anyone HAS to live according to those facts. Just saying that if thy want to make sense with their theories, they would be good to. And if they want me/anyone to stop repeating the facts, they should stop repeating their illogic thoeries and use their imagination for more believable ones.

[Azdgari]

[quote="SuperBabySimba"][quote="FlipMode"]Facts? It is also a fact that the world could end tomorrow, but I do not live in constant fear of it, just because the factsare there it does not mean people can not believe anything else, it is called imagination.[/quote]
Fluffy not being Kopa is a fact of what is.[/quote]
In your opinion. ^^

On a more on topic note, didn't you say somewhere that SP wasn't made by the original team either? That would lead me to the conclusion that none of SP is actually TLK canon at all, placing SP (and Kiara) at the same level of semi-canon as Kopa in that they're both featured in products with the Disney brand on them but neither are actually approved as Canon by the creators of TLK. :3

[Jiirani]

[quote="Azdgari"]On a more on topic note, didn't you say somewhere that SP wasn't made by the original team either? That would lead me to the conclusion that none of SP is actually TLK canon at all, placing SP (and Kiara) at the same level of semi-canon as Kopa in that they're both featured in products with the Disney brand on them but neither are actually approved as Canon by the creators of TLK. :3[/quote]

That sounds pretty valid to me It was different people who created SP, so they had different ideas to what the original people had planned

[SuperBabySimba]

Jiirani, but the original people didn't plan anything!

This is geting fun again! Or, finally...

Because I actually get to post new arguments among the old.

[quote="Azdgari"][quote="SuperBabySimba"] Fluffy not being Kopa is a fact of what is.[/quote]
In your opinion. ^^[/quote]

Ok, remember how the movie came out in June 1994. That's a fact. And how some months later in 1994, Kopa came out in the books. That's a fact. And how then in 1995 as in after Kopa existed in the books, the film makers still called it just "Fluffy" and didn't give it a gender. That is a fact too. No room for opinions in that scenario, is there?

Now, my opinion with common sense regarding that above mentioned factual timeline: If that cub had become Kopa in that story of theirs, as in if Kopa was officially considered canon, they would've said so on the commentary track instead of just refering to it as Fluffy&no-gender. They would've said something along the line: 'This was Fluffy with no gender when we released the movie, but later we decided it to be the boy Kopa from those new books out there.' But they only said Fluffy and didn't confirm the gender. If they meant it to be Kopa, they wouldn't have ignored him in the very situation where they had the chance to say it!

Ok, so, let's throw a guess that they recorded the commentary track before the books with Kopa came out. That would become all the more reason for them to edit the commentary if they had decided that Kopa would be the identity of the cub in their official canon. The edit would've been possible too because the commentary track hadn't been released yet. But they didn't change it, while chances are they hadn't even recorded it but only after Kopa existed. Thus, the cub not being Kopa is a fact of what is - because what is in the cub's cearors' vision is the fact for the cub's identity, or in this case for the lack of identity.

Now you're gonna argue that the film makers may not have known about the books? Well, the producer and directors (as in crew that was crucial to what the official story and characters turned out to be), state on the commentary/making-of documents that they believed the film to be a failure. Don't you think that they would've excitedly explored everything that came out from its unexpected, explosive popularity - at least for some time? Esepcially books the book department approved only mere months after the film came out, as in they came so soon and became part of the official TLK universe which they had started with the film. Thus the books would've very likely been an interest to the creators who thought no one would care about the film. I'd bet my life savings on that the film makers knew about Kopa - but they didn't care to turn Fluffy into him for one because he was fanmade.

I have acknowledged it is not Kiara either in the official canon because it's impossible to be liteally her as she didn't exist back then at all. But the fact that Kopa did exist back when the cub was first talked about by its creators but not refered to as Kopa, makes it NOT Kopa. This results automatically in the cub in the official canon to be Fluffy with no gender and nothing more. In other words it is your original character IF you choose to ignore the official sequel film. If you do count the sequel into the story, the cub can't logically be anyone but Kiara because the timeline of SP doesn't leave room for any older siblings.

[quote="Azdgari"]On a more on topic note, didn't you say somewhere that SP wasn't made by the original team either? That would lead me to the conclusion that none of SP is actually TLK canon at all, placing SP (and Kiara) at the same level of semi-canon as Kopa in that they're both featured in products with the Disney brand on them but neither are actually approved as Canon by the creators of TLK. :3[/quote]

There is an essential difference between the books and the SP film in those terms.
SP is one level higher in semi-canon matters than the books could ever hope to be, because:

- The books are books based on the film, and were not created, written and developed by Disney, they only have Disney stamp on them.
- Whereas SP is a film based on the film, and was created, written and developed by Disney's own people, its own animators.
- The books have been published only in USA.
- Whereas SP film was published world wide.

- SP is part of the official movie universe story because Disney's own animators and writers created it and it was published world wide. SP is as semi-canon as a thing can get without being literally tied in to the canon by the canon's creators.

- The books aren't part of the official movie universe story because they weren't created by Disney's people at all and certainly not by their animators, and weren't even published but only in USA. These facts keep it further away from being semi-canon because the books are much, MUCH less official every step of the way.

- SP being more official and thus closer to official semi-canon, makes with its timeline, Kopa's and any older sibling's existence impossible while the official canon's creators already ignored Kopa when they could've and should've confirmed him if he was supposed to be official canon.

Results in:
Fluffy not being Kopa in canon is a fact of what is. Fluffy not being Kiara in canon is a fact of what is. But as SP is the only completely official continuing sequel there is for the movie universe, and it leaves no room for any siblings, the very least for Kopa who it doesn't even mention. Thus, Fluffy not being Kopa is a fact that is, again.

Kopa was indeed denied twice in the official movie universe: First in the canon's makers as they ignored him, and then in the the official sequel film actually created and written by Disney's own people as they made no mantrion of older siblings and even left no room for older Siblings for Kiara and made Kovu the same age as Kopa is in the books!

[Jiirani]

[quote="SuperBabySimba"]Jiirani, but the original people didn't plan anything![/quote]

Not nessicarily. The people who created TLK, upon realizing how popular it was would most likely become excited about a sequel, so the orginal people may have had some ideas, but were not aloud to actually create them because different people created SP. Not that I really care whether any of the characters are canon or not; I still love them all the same xD

[SuperBabySimba]

[quote="Jiirani"][quote="SuperBabySimba"]Jiirani, but the original people didn't plan anything![/quote]

Not nessicarily. The people who created TLK, upon realizing how popular it was would most likely become excited about a sequel, so the orginal people may have had some ideas, but were not aloud to actually create them because different people created SP. Not that I really care whether any of the characters are canon or not; I still love them all the same xD[/quote]

And why do you think TLK's makers wouldn'r have been allowed to make the sequel if they had cared to? I can't think of any reason. Also, the popularity showed already in the movie theater success and critiques and the merchandise sells. The fact that they didn't bother to make any comments on their own visions on any character, not even giving a gender to the cub, on the commentary track for the Laserdisc release, is pretty much implying that they probably didn't care for a sequel, the very least to plan one themselves.

[Jiirani]

That's likely xD Does it really matter though? People will still love or hate TLK characters whether they are canon or not, so why do we have to argue over it? x3

[BlackTerriermon]

I think that Chaka (Kiara's brother that was cut from the movie) was meant to be the cub at the end of TLK, and Kiara's older brother, but then they cut him out, so Kiara is really the cub at the end of TLK, so I think Kiara is "Fluffy", but Chaka was another version of "Fluffy" (I'm not shooting anyone else's opinions or theories down, I was just posting my opinion. ^^)

[quote="Arani"](Who would name their child fluffy?) 0_o...[/quote]
I would. XD

[Azdgari]

[quote]Fluffy not being Kopa in canon is a fact of what is[/quote]
In your most educated and well formulated opinion, yes. Until you have written proof from the creators that that cub is not Kopa, it'd be nice if you could not be so assertive that you are absolutely right and everybody else's opinion is wrong. That's what people mean by you forcing your opinion on them; when you say things like that you are saying you are right and everybody else is wrong, even if you don't mean to. I agree with Jirani though, best not to fight about it. ^^

To your response to my argument, I would say, again, that's your opinion, that not being released worldwide makes them less relevant. I would argue anything with a Disney mark on it is canon to an extent, regardless of whether or not it was created by TLK or disney, Disney approved it and allowed it to be sold, making it at the very least 'official' as Moka so helpfully said. ^^