The Problem With This Site

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The Problem With This Site

Postby Carl » March 13th, 2017, 7:55 pm

This site has been falling apart since November, and I'm honestly extremely pissed to hear that it has gotten even more riddled with hypocrisy and asinine bullshit in the time that I've been away (I hear that porn is considered a joke now, even though I was told a few months ago it was not to be tolerated and warranted an immediate ban, joke or no), so I felt it was necessary that someone draw attention to it and point out the real problem since Moka is clearly bound and determined to pretend the problem lies elsewhere than it does.

This site was always peaceful and happy in the years I was active, up until the end of 2016. It was a place where not everyone liked each other and people didn't always see eye-to-eye, but we handled our disagreements in a relatively mature way and we all continued to enjoy the site even if there were members here we hated for some reason or another. It was a harmonious and special corner of the internet that I loved visiting and loved being a moderator for. I liked helping this place even when it was stressful because it was worth it. Even when Adofo tried to tarnish my reputation and get me fired from the staff, I still wanted to be here and wanted to be a part of this community.

But now it has changed, and [censored] has gone way too far, and it went there months ago, and we tried our best to fix it, but there was only so much we could do. MLK has become a place that I get angry just hearing about, the rare occasion I think about the site and want to check up on the few friends I have here I can't contact elsewhere I just get consumed by rage because this isn't a place where I can come check up on my friends anymore, it's not a friendly happy place anymore and I'll never be able to see it that way again because the problem is something that is never going to go away, or I guess I should say, it's someone. Moka's management style, if you can call it that, is the ONLY problem, if I'm honest, and you all know that I AM honest.

We had a few misunderstandings when the trouble first began that would have been sorted out if people had communicated with the staff, Moka was right about that. But after that point, things went too far and him being involved and trying to be "understanding" in the most hypocritical way possible is what made everything worse. I watched a few members deliberately stirring up trouble. Eventually they began a near-constant string of passive aggressive attacks on myself, Marizzle, and KK, though mostly the latter. This went on for months with us BEGGING Moka to do something. We were the victims, it wouldn't be right for US to do something about them. But he refused to even talk to us most of the time, remaining silent, ignoring us completely. That's right, after saying we all needed to communicate better, he IGNORED his staff when they were being harassed, publicly, and the harassment went offsite, too, and Moka STILL ignored our pleas for guidance or action.

After months of things escalating, he became angry with US, without even speaking to us, because we were angry and irrational. But why would his staff have been anything else when he had ABANDONED us and we had to keep dealing with this crap, feeling powerless? He forbade us from issuing bans after a couple of bans had been issued at HIS AND KK'S WORD because he decided we'd been too rash, so even though the bans that caused him to say that were not those made at the moderators' own discretion, he forbade us from using our discretion to issue any bans at all, even on people who had reached the warning level that had a ban accompany it. So we weren't allowed to punish people if they did anything, at least not a punishment that would mean much, because people will ignore warnings without bans, and yet when [censored] went down he ignored us. All he would have had to do would have been to talk to the people, and if that didn't work he could have issued a warning, worked up from there if they kept at it... but he refused.

Tensions rose because we were powerless. The people who did those things, well, maybe they had reasons, I'm not here to judge them, because honestly they weren't the problem, they were just what led me to understand the problem.

See, for the last two years this site was run with the staff communicating on the site. We talked everything out and got opinions before acting except in extreme cases. Anyone who wasn't around would come by later and read through it and everything was fine. The site was happy, the staff was happy, and when people did something that deserved punishing, they were punished. If the staff made a mistake, we would apologize and set it right and there was none of this public drama bullshit that plagued the site recently. Usually Moka wasn't present for that, and typically would just comment on things after the fact, either noting what should have been done differently or praising the action. Then telegram happened, and he decided he needed to communicate with everyone... EXCEPT his staff.

He never tried to understand our perspective, he simply scolded us for being angry, stressed and frustrated that he'd taken away our power and had refused to act when we were being treated like crap. He refused to look at it from our side, meanwhile he talked to those who were treating us poorly and tried to "understand" and explain away their actions without ever trying to justify our feelings to them, or if he did he did so falsely because he didn't talk to us privately the way he did them to try and come to understand our perspective, not until it was much too late. He came to me one day after I'd had a very stressful day at work and I'd come back to hear about further escalation in the drama and was livid. He expected me to talk with him and one of the instigators when I was already stressed out of my mind. I needed to eat and already my stomach was turning so I declined to speak with them at that time, saying it would have to happen a different time if it happened, knowing I wouldn't be fair and not wanting to be even more angry and stressed that day.

Moka responded to this by firing me from his staff. That's right. I didn't step down, I was FIRED. Fired because I was sick of watching people break the rules and not being allowed to do my damn job. Fired because I apparently "scared" Moka by being fed up and deciding I was going to just leave without a word. To be fair, I'd asked to be temporarily removed from the staff several times due to irl issues and had been ignored, but that further goes to show that he WASN'T LISTENING to us, despite claiming communication is important. I asked for help, he ignored it. You guys think he's some cool, chill, nice understanding guy but the fact is he will do anything for his friends, including treat the staff like misbehaving children. He's not the nice, fair, understanding person he wants people to think he is, and for that reason, I am well and truly done with this site. I had thought that in time I would be less angry and I would want to come back and things would be okay, but I've found that my anger only dissipates when I'm not here and not thinking about the place, even though irl has become much less stressful. So at this point, I don't intend to return unless some drastic changes take place and Moka starts listening to BOTH sides and being fair to everyone, instead of just ignoring whichever side he likes less. He needs to own up to his mistakes and admit that he was at fault and he needs to actually TRY to make himself the person he claims he is. I could have said this to him privately, but based on our other conversations, it would have changed nothing, if he even acknowledged it, and I feel like people deserve to know who is in charge, and I honestly don't care if he wants to punish me for saying what's on my mind, like he did to my friends.

Am I one of the cool kids now that my friends have been banned? :zuricool:

If you don't want to completely lose contact with me, you'd best ask for some contact info before I get banned for daring to tell y'all this small fraction of the truth. Or you can wait a few years for when I apologize and beg to be let back and reappear suddenly one day.
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Re: The Problem With This Site

Postby TheLionPrince » March 13th, 2017, 9:09 pm

Oh my Lord. This is a stunning revelation, Carl. Thank you for speaking up. I should have said this months ago, but the problems at MLK Forum need to be fixed from the top down, not from the bottom up. Your post only confirms this. I still believe most of us users here are good people, and it's incredibly disheartening that those who want to make a difference are leaving and as you mentioned, fired. I'm still surprised Moka hasn't named a successor to KingKivuli yet, but then again, I want to hear his side of the story. There has to be a reason for this. I still give him credit for creating this forum, but I do think this forum needs him now more than enough when all of this drama going on.
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Re: The Problem With This Site

Postby WildSimba » March 13th, 2017, 9:15 pm

Discussing moderation actions in public forums. If a member has a concern with a moderation action, that member is welcome to discuss it with staff via private message. The staff will never publicly discuss the warnings or suspensions of any member. We ask that you return the favor, whether it is about yourself or another member.


Nice hypocritical post. Complaining about rule breaking, while simultaneously breaking rules in this post. Really sounds like you need to take a major chill pill, dude. If you want to know where the true problem lies, it's in the hostility from people like you and posts like this. We need to get along here, not just continuously throw more flames into the fire. By posting something like this you're being PART of the problem, not against it.

Since when too, is an administrator trying to give a fair and equal chance to members and trying to hear them out a bad thing? If this is how you were acting in private chats with him, I can completely understand why he was ignoring you, sorry. I would ignore you too. You're being nothing but hostile here and from the sounds of it, unwilling to listen. THAT'S why he took banning rights away, he can't trust moderators when they act like you're acting right now.

Also when has literal porn ever been posted here? All I saw was some sexual joke images that maybe shouldn't of been posted but would mostly just warrant a warning.
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Re: The Problem With This Site

Postby FlipMode » March 13th, 2017, 9:17 pm

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There wasn't enough irony in this thread already.
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Re: The Problem With This Site

Postby Gemini » March 13th, 2017, 11:55 pm

Wait so when was there actual porn posted? Am I just really unobservant or did I miss something?

Cuz all I remember seeing lately is some s***ty Valentine cards tbh.

I'm also just kind of generally wondering what prompted this post because I don't feel like anything new has happened here in a while.

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Re: The Problem With This Site

Postby MalibuTrashDog » March 14th, 2017, 12:15 am

Wew

I want to address a few things because I feel like I'm one of "the individuals" you keep referring to.

I've been on this site for years. Years. And I feel like somewhere between my absence around 2013 and now a rumor has started against me that bathes me in this horrible trollish light which I get the feeling makes people apprehensive whenever I'm around. Which also makes it extremely difficult when I've tried to do nice things to keep the forum active, which I really do try. Like I said in a previous thread, which you probably didn't see, behind my sarcasm and bad humor I am actually a very approachable person if anyone were to bother and TRY to talk to me.

Marizzle and I had tension before but guess what, we talked it out on Telegram and I believe everything is fine between us now. Moka had approached me and a few of us about talking with you because of this feeling of animosity which a lot of us agreed and wanted to do. You stated yourself here that you didn't want to, and guess what, that's your fault that you didn't want to talk and come to understandings. Heck, I wanted to talk to you cause I felt that a lot of what you're going through is not that far off from what I've been through.

Depression, everyone has it. Yeah I was beat by my parents, yeah I was molested and heck my absence after 2013 had a lot to do with the fact that I indeed tried to kill myself. But I've learned to cope with it now and I don't let a lot of meaningless things get to me. Unfortunately a byproduct of it is my sarcasm and bad humor, oops.

As for you being "fired" from your fake job and title that holds no meaning in the real world, tbh you should be thankful. You were letting a position that held no real meaning hold a lot of stress over your life and for what? Were you getting paid, no. Is it going to look good if you put it on your resume, no. THEN WHO CARES.

Honestly it's getting a little tiring that no one is able to be themselves without having people who need to hold mommy's hand to use a forum being triggered left and right. And yeah, maybe I'm being a little mean but if people actually talked to each other like I've been saying for months we'd understand each other a little better.

And let me tell you a little thing about your buddies with the Soviet fetish since they're probably not disclosing the whole truth. They are only banned because they literally asked to be banned. I'm serious. They literally said "please ban us". If they're crying now because Moka took them literally then oh well.

There are great people on this forum, a lot of which I'm happy to be friends with and I gotta say they're the most loyal friends I've ever had.

And let me give you a little advice, mark my words. Your Soviet buddies are only friends with you right now for convenience. Once they're done with you they won't think twice about betraying your friendship. I'd be careful if I were you.
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Re: The Problem With This Site

Postby Panda-chan » March 14th, 2017, 12:17 am

No, this site hasn't been "falling apart" since November; it was chaotic from November to February but the dust has settled and it's been fairly quiet for the past month. Also,
Carl wrote:(I hear that porn is considered a joke now, even though I was told a few months ago it was not to be tolerated and warranted an immediate ban, joke or no),

I have no idea what you're referring to here.

And lets not kid ourselves. The real "problem" you have with this site is the fact that SH and Kops got banned, since that's what 75% of your post is whining about. I'm sure that a lot of people would agree with Moka's decision after seeing the posts they made (especially those that were deleted), their constant profile changes, the harassing PM's they sent, etc. These two were clearly unstable and their behavior on the site reflected that. They were so intent on pursuing their vendetta against me and Malibu that they used to constantly bait us into breaking the rules so they could report us, and that finally became clear to Moka. So please stop acting like these two weren't the problem because they spent the entire last few months fanning the flames of the [censored] and trying to polarize the site as much as possible.

Carl wrote:We had a few misunderstandings when the trouble first began that would have been sorted out if people had communicated with the staff, Moka was right about that. But after that point, things went too far and him being involved and trying to be "understanding" in the most hypocritical way possible is what made everything worse. I watched a few members deliberately stirring up trouble. Eventually they began a near-constant string of passive aggressive attacks on myself, Marizzle, and KK, though mostly the latter. This went on for months with us BEGGING Moka to do something. We were the victims, it wouldn't be right for US to do something about them. But he refused to even talk to us most of the time, remaining silent, ignoring us completely. That's right, after saying we all needed to communicate better, he IGNORED his staff when they were being harassed, publicly, and the harassment went offsite, too, and Moka STILL ignored our pleas for guidance or action.

After months of things escalating, he became angry with US, without even speaking to us, because we were angry and irrational. But why would his staff have been anything else when he had ABANDONED us and we had to keep dealing with this crap, feeling powerless? He forbade us from issuing bans after a couple of bans had been issued at HIS AND KK'S WORD because he decided we'd been too rash, so even though the bans that caused him to say that were not those made at the moderators' own discretion, he forbade us from using our discretion to issue any bans at all, even on people who had reached the warning level that had a ban accompany it. So we weren't allowed to punish people if they did anything, at least not a punishment that would mean much, because people will ignore warnings without bans, and yet when [censored] went down he ignored us. All he would have had to do would have been to talk to the people, and if that didn't work he could have issued a warning, worked up from there if they kept at it... but he refused.


After seeing this post I can see why Moka revoked your banning privileges. Clearly the situation needed an impartial outsider to resolve and you've just admitted that you were taking sides. Honestly, if you had actually tried to communicate with us, (and you even refused this opportunity when Moka brought it up!), this could have been resolved much sooner and the drama wouldn't have spread the way it has. I'm not even on the staff team, and even I can see that Moka recognized that there were problems on both sides and needed to put a stop to the string of bans until he could investigate and figure out what was going on.

And really, can anyone blame Moka for ignoring you with the hostile tone you're setting here? If this is the way you confronted him, by acting like a victim and whining and not reaching out to settle things like an adult, then he was right to tune you out. FYI, when I first confronted Moka I actually acted the same way and also got ignored but guess what? After that I spoke in a more civil and respectful tone, and SHOCKER, he actually started giving me the time of day. No one likes to be bombarded with hate messages about drama on a Lion King forum. If you act like a child, expect to be treated like one.

Carl wrote:He never tried to understand our perspective, he simply scolded us for being angry, stressed and frustrated that he'd taken away our power and had refused to act when we were being treated like crap. He refused to look at it from our side, meanwhile he talked to those who were treating us poorly and tried to "understand" and explain away their actions without ever trying to justify our feelings to them, or if he did he did so falsely because he didn't talk to us privately the way he did them to try and come to understand our perspective, not until it was much too late. He came to me one day after I'd had a very stressful day at work and I'd come back to hear about further escalation in the drama and was livid. He expected me to talk with him and one of the instigators when I was already stressed out of my mind. I needed to eat and already my stomach was turning so I declined to speak with them at that time, saying it would have to happen a different time if it happened, knowing I wouldn't be fair and not wanting to be even more angry and stressed that day.


It sounds like you were constantly hounding him and stressing him out, so no wonder he wasn't communicating with you. Also, are you really complaining about the admin trying to understand both sides, and learning about the whole situation, before doing something as rash as banning someone? You seem so obsessed with losing your banning privilege, as though banning is the only way to deal with forum drama. It's hotheaded moderators that ban first and ask questions later, that this site needs less of.

Carl wrote:Moka responded to this by firing me from his staff. That's right. I didn't step down, I was FIRED. Fired because I was sick of watching people break the rules and not being allowed to do my damn job. Fired because I apparently "scared" Moka by being fed up and deciding I was going to just leave without a word. To be fair, I'd asked to be temporarily removed from the staff several times due to irl issues and had been ignored, but that further goes to show that he WASN'T LISTENING to us, despite claiming communication is important. I asked for help, he ignored it. You guys think he's some cool, chill, nice understanding guy but the fact is he will do anything for his friends, including treat the staff like misbehaving children. He's not the nice, fair, understanding person he wants people to think he is, and for that reason, I am well and truly done with this site. I had thought that in time I would be less angry and I would want to come back and things would be okay, but I've found that my anger only dissipates when I'm not here and not thinking about the place, even though irl has become much less stressful. So at this point, I don't intend to return unless some drastic changes take place and Moka starts listening to BOTH sides and being fair to everyone, instead of just ignoring whichever side he likes less. He needs to own up to his mistakes and admit that he was at fault and he needs to actually TRY to make himself the person he claims he is. I could have said this to him privately, but based on our other conversations, it would have changed nothing, if he even acknowledged it, and I feel like people deserve to know who is in charge, and I honestly don't care if he wants to punish me for saying what's on my mind, like he did to my friends.


Given how obviously stressed out and prone to anger you are, I think it was a sensible decision to demote you. If this site is causing you so much stress, despite the fact that nothing has happened over the last month but you still seem really triggered for some reason, then perhaps it's for the best that you take a break from here. I thought for sure things had settled down by now, and then you came back and brought the drama back up because you are obviously still not over it. A Lion King site on the internet should not be affecting your mental state so deeply, especially if you're a staff member. As WS said, take a chillpill and sort out the problems in your life.
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Re: The Problem With This Site

Postby S1mb4 D4 L10n » March 14th, 2017, 1:00 am

In addition to what's been said previously, this is just a Lion King forum. Let's not take the drama so seriously that we forget that this is a small community for a Disney fandom. (Not to say it's a waste, by any means. But Moka isn't heading a government agency, it's just a niche forum)

That said, moderators should moderate with a degree of restraint. Moka being reluctant to drop the ban hammer isn't something I'd be against. Sure, red tape can be a bit annoying, but the process is there for a reason. Caution and deliberation is preferable to being trigger-happy with delegated powers.

Considering Jules, self-admittedly, is stressed and suffering IRL, I would argue that this is not the composition of someone that should be dictating/regulating the fate of members on the site. I don't intend this as an insult. Personal pain often lends itself to irrationality that isn't necessarily a good trait in a leader/authority position.

I haven't been on the site as regularly as I used to be. Maybe Moka is at fault for some of this, maybe he isn't. I don't know. But I doubt that this thread is the only side of the story. Let's hear what he has to say in response before the site witch-hunts the shaite out of either side.
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Re: The Problem With This Site

Postby CatchTheRain » March 14th, 2017, 3:28 am

This thread is ironic to me since you basically bullied TimonTheGreat off the site. It's only ok when it's hurting you I guess.
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Re: The Problem With This Site

Postby Moka » March 14th, 2017, 5:07 am

I think ever since my post, things have been quite happy and peaceful. Maybe others can chime in here. I'm not really sure to what you're referring when you say things have gone too far. I think your PMs and this post in a way show that it was probably a good idea to remove you from the mod group. By the way, being a mod is volunteer work. I wish people would stop taking it so seriously--but that aside, mods are free at any time to give it up. I saw things were going downhill for you in your personal life, and I did ask you a few times if it was too much, which you also eluded to in the mod chat. It got so bad and I got so worried that I just did it for you, but I also regret that because it seems like I'm getting so much lash back for it from you.

Regarding the tense few weeks a little while ago and my outlook on moderators in general, I fully expect moderators to have autonomy. I try to be available for questions as much as possible, but MLK is low priority for me these days. I've admitted that openly before and I think it's pretty obvious to everyone. What I saw in the mod group chat on telegram towards the end was a fair amount of bickering and not much creative problem-solving or leadership. I was usually at work when the conversations were happening, so I apologize for having to miss them. I did offer the advice "communicate" multiple times, but ultimately had to drag people into group chats to initiate that (which I believe ended up helping a lot, finally). Unfortunately, you refused my request to talk with the members, only after which I removed you out of a legitimate fear. You were saying some pretty dark stuff. Clearly things are still as bad, if you're willing to type all this hateful stuff up. (I surely didn't plan to spend the few hours I have in the evenings reading and writing up this response.)

I'm also up for listening to you, as I always have been. I promptly responded to your PM last month. Your latest reply made it seem like things were okay, and that you were going to give it some time. You also lamented having to sign in to type up the response, so I chose to just read it and respectfully give you some space. Of course, the priority thing comes into play here. I may not be able to act/reply/response for hours or maybe even a day. I'm conscious of my time, and I'm sorry if it felt like I wasn't giving enough to you. Also, yes, it was stressful having to catch up on messages every day.

As for "KK's replacement", it's probably not happening. There just isn't a need for more moderators or admins. We had a large group of mods from when MLK was very active that had stayed on until a few weeks ago. I think we have a good number now, until activity picks up.

I'll also ask you to be mindful of who you let whisper in your ear. I've never known you to be so irrationally hateful, but here we are.

Anyway, I think others have made some great points, No need for me to repeat them.
Moka
:D

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