Ridiculous Religion vs Absurd Atheism

[SlayerOfLight]

How is it possible that God can create something, but not alter or destroy it? It just doesn't make sense to me, in principle. We humans have the power to change anything that we create, so I find it hard to believe that God can't.

Could you please be a bit more clear on that? Because I'm not sure what this has anything to do with the latter we discussed about. Also, give an example on this.

Either way, if that is true, then we must have power over God. Therefore, we have free will, and we are capable of making our own decisions. It's as simple as that.

Yet you dont seem to realise our own free will is given to us by God, because he doesn't want to create lifeless ''drones'' that are automatically programmed to follow his every command. Unfortunately, having a free will also implies that one can willingly rebel against God and do evil.

Oh, and on that note, let's not forget that God isn't quite the great being I'm supposed to think he is. If I remember correctly, God told Abraham to kill his son, to test his faith.

You got it all wrong there. God merely wanted to test Abraham to see if he would follow such an order, and his son wasn't killed in the end because Abraham was stopped by an angel send by God before he could kill his own son.

If there is a supreme being, and only one supreme being, then that supreme being had to create everything. By saying that God didn't create evil and sin, then you are also saying that some things are outside of God's control, which, again, means God isn't really a God.

That is the ''god'' which is implanted into your mind. You seem to forget that IF there is a God, then this God must be a pure, perfect, good, uncorrupt and holy being. Instead of just being a creator of ''everything'' you should also look at God as a pure light in which no darkness dwells, and therefore no darkness can be produced from the light. In the same manner, God is bound to moralities and he cannot do evil or create evil. If God created evil, then he would act contrary to his own nature, which is something a perfect God can't do. A more valid thing to say is that God is merely the creator of life, and everything that is good and perfect, (like our planet, and the universe for example). Evil is something which developped on it's own whitin his creation.

[SlayerOfLight]

So Nicholas, please explain to me. If God will not create evil, why did he create Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pott, Mao Zedong, Heinrich Himmler, etc.?

There is no logic in this. God is either a perfect being (otherwise why follow him) or he is not, and in that case why call him God?

God didn't create any of those persons the way they are. They just started life innocent as children, but because of their own free will, they became evil. Imagine this: You are married to a woman, and you and her are doing you-know-what and a while later you get a son. You teache your son to be good and raise him properly, but nonetheless, he turns to crime because of meeting some wrong fellas, and he ends up becomming a murderer. Does that mean that you are guilty of this too, even though you taught your ''son'' to be good? I don't think so. To say God shouldn't have ''created'' those evil persons is the same like saying you shouldn't have taken any kids because your son became a murderer. It's all a matter of free will and choices, and God gave us a free will to make our own decisions wether we oppose him or follow him, though he obviously wants us to follow him and flee from doing evil.

[Regulus]

Okay, but let's look at this from another perspective, if that's not good enough.

If God created man, then he put the entertainment center right next to the waste removal system. This does not seem like something a perfect being would do.

[SlayerOfLight]

So Nicholas, please explain to me. If God will not create evil, why did he create Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pott, Mao Zedong, Heinrich Himmler, etc.?

There is no logic in this. God is either a perfect being (otherwise why follow him) or he is not, and in that case why call him God?

God didn't create any of those persons the way they are. They just started life innocent as children, but because of their own free will, they became evil. Imagine this: You are married to a woman, and you and her are doing you-know-what and a while later you get a son. You teache your son to be good and raise him properly, but nonetheless, he turns to crime because of meeting some wrong fellas, and he ends up becomming a murderer. Does that mean that you are guilty of this too, even though you taught your ''son'' to be good? I don't think so. To say God shouldn't have ''created'' those evil persons is the same like saying you shouldn't have taken any kids because your son became a murderer. It's all a matter of free will and choices, and God gave us a free will to make our own decisions wether we oppose him or follow him, though he obviously wants us to follow him and flee from doing evil.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
~Epicurius

I should ask Epicurius some time if he ever heared of ''tolerance''.

[Regulus]

To tolerate evil is to be evil.

[SlayerOfLight]

@Regulus and Woeler:

The thing is, in God's eyes none of us are non-evil because we all have done something evil at least once in our lives. I'm pretty sure all of us ever thought something like: ''damn, I wish that idiot would get killed'' about someone we hate or don't like. This already makes you a murderer in your heart, even though you actually haven't committed the crime. If God were to whipe away all evil, then all of us would cease to exist besides only people like Hitler and Bin Laden. Because all of us have sinned and we all deserve to be punished. None but God is sinless.

[Regulus]

^ Which was exactly my point.

I believe that if a benevolent God existed, we wouldn't. That's because we don't deserve to live, as a species.

[SlayerOfLight]

But you forgot about the part that God originally created mankind perfect and sinless, and in his image, and not the way we are now. But nonetheless, God's mercy allows us to be forgiven for our sins, since God himself died for our sins on the cross even though he didn't have to. This was a completely selfless act by God, to be punished for the sins of his own creation.

[SlayerOfLight]

That comparison is rubbish and you know it. Comparing real crime with thought-crime is ridiculous. You keep escaping the fact that someone who can prevent evil, but isn't willing to prevent it is in fact evil. There is no logical way of getting around that, and there is certainly no scripture supporting anything beyond this.

I still have to disagree. If you truly want a person to die, then the only diffrence between an actual murder is that you don't commit the murder yourself. To us thoughts and deeds may not be such a big deal, I admit that. But to God it would be, if we assume he exists, since God would not only judge all of our deeds in life, but also the person we are in our hearts.

And like I said, if God was stopping all evil right now, every single person on earth would die. God doesn't count our sins, because a sin is a sin. He wouldn't be a fair ''god'' if he only punished Hitler for example and not us. I admit, even I look down at Hitler like you do. But to God we are not much diffrent from Hitler, because God cannot allow any sin to go unpunished, That's why he choose willingly and selflessly to sacrifice himself on the cross for our sins. (A story you shouldn't be unfamilar with after having (possibly) debated with many others of my kind.) God is merely watching humanity reaping what it has sown. Because by rebelling to God, we are responsible for all the evil that we do to ourselves.

Also None but God is sinless. Yet he created us in his own image. That seems to contradict itself.

Mankind was created sinless. Only after sin came into the world, it was that only God remained sinless. Also, the supposed fact that we are created in the image of God doesn't mean that we are literally 100% like God himself but rather in terms that we, like him, are eternal because we have an eternal soul that does not die.

And don't tell me 'we were once different'. We weren't. The bible says the Earth is 4000 years old and we have enough evidence showing that at that time there was murder, war and violence.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought our debate was about God's personality and nature (for if he WOULD exist) rather then physical evidence for his existance? It's fine by me if you don't believe in the bible, but I as a Christian do.

And a question that bugs me. How do YOU know the way 'a God' views things? This stuff is in no holy book. These are just wild claims to escape the sharp teeth of logic and human reasoning. I'm not ashamed to say that I am arrogant, but to say that I know what 'the creator' of the universe thinks and wants are levels of arrogance that even I haven't touched.

See my previous statement. I am in no way escaping the ''sharp teeth of logic and human reasoning'' because I truly believe that God exists and that the bible is his word. Be free to call me names for that though, but that's my personal view. While I appreciate science in many ways, I simply do not think that science has all the answers, nor will I just simply take everything what National Geographic or Discovery Channel shoves down my throat, as a fact.

[Regulus]

lol, this is almost amusing to me. You totally just proved my own point. One of my points, anyway.

The belief that God exists is actually a pretty big catalyst for all the horrible things that man does.

If you truly believe that thinking evil things is the same as doing evil things, you're lost. It feeds this erroneous notion that since no one is perfect, we don't need to try to be. It's the fallacious idea that we don't need to be on our best behavior, because we're all equal in God's eyes.

Just look at the news. People are murdered. People are raped. Hate crimes are everywhere, if you know where to look. Throughout history, some men have tortured others for their own sick pleasure. It happens.

I'm sorry, but no. Not all people are created equal. Not everyone deserves to live. I'm not going to try to argue that I'm superior to those people--I'm stating it as a fact. I am better than that, no question about it.

The belief that Hitler is no less of a person than any of us is the most absurd thing I've heard all day. After all, it was such beliefs, at the time, which allowed him to do what he did.

No. We need to be better than that. We can't control our feelings, but we can control whether or not we act on them. There is no legitimate excuse.

We should always strive to improve ourselves and become a better person. All too often, it is the direct effect of God himself, which gets in the way of that. The belief that he exists, whether he exists or not, holds us back.