Israel Under Attack?

[TheRoguePrince]

Woeler, could you make your post a little longer next time?

[quote="Woeler1"]Let me just say what Christianity is responsible for in this age. Every human who had to suffer months and months because of an incurable disease in the western world. Every child whose mother was denied an abortion with a sucky life, abuse, neglectance or any other form of child abuse caused by this. The long time of persecuting homosexuals, women and black people. Thank you Christianity, thank you God. Amen[/quote]
Don't forget Judaism and Islam in that too. Both of those religions are against homosexuality and abortions. Just saying...

[quote="Woeler1"]The Pope is acknowledged as the legitimate leader of the church.[/quote]
That goes for Catholics not Protestants, to be fair they are both parts of Christianity, but don't loop the Pope in with Baptists and all lol


[quote="Woeler1"]The church and by extension Christianity are obsessed with sex.[/quote]
Uh?
Where did you get that?
Americans (and especially Christians) don't like talking about sex in public, and from what I understand, that's different in Europe.

[quote="Woeler1"]This procedure should be carried out for medical reasons only, not for religious dogma that has already scarred hundreds of thousands of children over the past two millennia[/quote]
Well, about 2/3 of America is circumcised, but only about 10% of Americans follow the two religions where this is required (Islam, Jews) so I wouldn't say this is due to religion, but more due to American-style medical knowledge. Probably in the same weird fashion that we don't use the metric system and the 18 year drinking age. What can I say? The US is odd sometimes...but lol, it's not always on religion.

And also Woeler, you need to stop quoting the Old Testament, nobody follows that anymore. It's there and it's important to believers, but it's not followed by any sane Christian in America. It also says not to eat certain grapes and shellfish. We don't follow those rules, and we don't follow the killing of witches, etc.

AND BACK TO ISRAEL...

I think the reason alot of people choose Israel over Palestine, is because Hamas (a terrorist group) is working with Palestine.

[Tora]

I was going to post a book til I read the whole argument of yours. You argue the old testament, which Christians only look to for advice on certain things. You wanna argue old testament go talk with the Jews. (No Offense) No true Christian would ever do the things in which you depict. For like the third time I'll say only the Catholics follow the Pope. When you can start arguing using the words of Jesus I'd be glad to debate with you.

[WildSimba]

[quote="Tora"]I was going to post a book til I read the whole argument of yours. You argue the old testament, which Christians only look to for advice on certain things. You wanna argue old testament go talk with the Jews. (No Offense) No true Christian would ever do the things in which you depict. For like the third time I'll say only the Catholics follow the Pope. When you can start arguing using the words of Jesus I'd be glad to debate with you.[/quote]

Yes, since Christians follow the New Testament, and Jews don't believe Jesus was the true son of god, so they still follow the Old Testament. A true believer believes in Jesus, and his teachings. And believe it or not, if you've ever read the New Testament of the bible, a lot of what Jesus preached had to do with unity and treating everyone as equals and loving all of your fellow men.

[SlayerOfLight]

The way I see it, the God of christianity has not changed, nor would he ever. He's still the same God like in the old testement. However, in the new testament he shows his soft and caring side through his only begotten son Jesus Christ who was send by God the father to die for our sins instead, so that people no longer have to be stoned or sentanced to death for the sins they commit. It is important to understand that (according to the bible) Jesus was not merely a man, but God himself who came into the ''flesh'' not to condemn the world, but to save it.

But I admit, it's true that in the old testament God/Yahweh did not go easy on the wicked. For example, the 9th plague of Egypt ordered every newborn to be killed. However, what some people fail to realise is that it was actually the Pharaoh's fault because he got it comming himself. Moses clearly warned him that every newborn would be killed, if he wouldn't let the jews go (who at that moment were going through a ''holocaust'' similar to the nazi's). The Pharaoh selfishly choose to sacrifice all of his country's newborns over his jewish slaves, while he could have saved the newborns if he ONLY would have released all the jews. So I don't think God is the one to blame here. And then there is this misconception about ''human sacrice'' that Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son Isaac. But this didn't happen, as God was only testing Abraham to see wether he would really do it or not.


Now, I'm not starting a debate or something. As a Christian, I'm just stating my opinion how I see things.

[Shadowfax]

*Is still waiting for Tora's book post* xD

[Woeler]

[quote="TheRoguePrince"]
Don't forget Judaism and Islam in that too. Both of those religions are against homosexuality and abortions. Just saying...[/quote]
If you had done your research you would have known that passive euthanasia is legal in Israel. Islam can be completely rejected as their countries are far behind on the technological scale. The only thing preventing euthanasia in the western world is Christianity.

[quote="TheRoguePrince"]That goes for Catholics not Protestants, to be fair they are both parts of Christianity, but don't loop the Pope in with Baptists and all lol[/quote]
We're talking about Christianity here. As far as I know protestantism and catholicism are both a branches of Christianity.

[quote="TheRoguePrince"]Uh?
Where did you get that?
Americans (and especially Christians) don't like talking about sex in public, and from what I understand, that's different in Europe.[/quote]
It has nothing to do with being American or European. Never did I mention ''talking about sex''. I said having sex. It's a taboo subject. Not because it needs to be taboo, but because religion makes it taboo. A creator who apparently creates us sick and then orders us to be well again isn't moral. That's evil. As an example I could use premarital sex.

[quote="TheRoguePrince"]Well, about 2/3 of America is circumcised, but only about 10% of Americans follow the two religions where this is required (Islam, Jews) so I wouldn't say this is due to religion, but more due to American-style medical knowledge. Probably in the same weird fashion that we don't use the metric system and the 18 year drinking age. What can I say? The US is odd sometimes...but lol, it's not always on religion.[/quote]
[quote="encyclopedia"]as a means of discouraging masturbation or other socially proscribed sexual behaviors, as a means of removing "excess" pleasure,[/quote]
That is where it comes from in religious terms. Various cultures practiced it way before the Jews because it was actually useful against infections at that time. The last 2000 years it has been useless. It is mutilation on the basis of dogma. And besides, you take away a child's right to decide over its own body. I'm not even going to describe the Jewish method of circumcision, which is disgusting. What if I was a Muslim and were to walk up to you and tell you ''I cut off my little girl's clitoris because of the middle-eastern-style knowledge''. What would you think of me if I were to say such a hideous and disgusting thing? "American style knowledge" is a non-existent term.

[quote="TheRoguePrince"]And also Woeler, you need to stop quoting the Old Testament, nobody follows that anymore. It's there and it's important to believers, but it's not followed by any sane Christian in America. It also says not to eat certain grapes and shellfish. We don't follow those rules, and we don't follow the killing of witches, etc.
[/quote]
Just to be clear: I don't need to stop doing anything.
Of course the old testament is still relevant? Where do you get all this nonsense? It's like talking to Bill O'Reilly. The old testament is a holy book of the Jews and the basis for the new testament. You don't kill witches ANYMORE. And you know why? Because the world has become subject to argument, sober discussion, science and secular-moral philosophy.

[quote="Tora"]I was going to post a book til I read the whole argument of yours. You argue the old testament, which Christians only look to for advice on certain things. You wanna argue old testament go talk with the Jews. (No Offense) No true Christian would ever do the things in which you depict. For like the third time I'll say only the Catholics follow the Pope. When you can start arguing using the words of Jesus I'd be glad to debate with you.[/quote]
No, No, No. You're not gonna get away that easy. I want you to look at that huge list of atrocities in the spoiler, and I want you to acknowledge that this was done by Christians in the name of Christianity, Christ and God. I will start praising the actual teachings of Jesus when the majority of Christians step off their anti-gay, anti-choice, anti-euthanasia, pro-garbage teaching in schools ideas. (e.g. a kid with the potential to become the scientists that cures cancer now believes that the earth is 4000 years old and created by an invisible entity that defies physics. That is not moral. That is stupid.)

Until the time that Christians will become peaceful people who do NOT force their beliefs on others via the law or any other system, who do NOT discriminate against gays, who will raise their kids in a way that they actually have a choice on what to believe, who will let everybody make their OWN choices, who will keep their religion OUT of the government, and who will actually turn the other cheek. Then I may say that Christianity is a force of good in the world, but until that day, it is not.

[TheRoguePrince]

[quote="Woeler1"][quote="TheRoguePrince"][quote="Woeler1"]Every child whose mother was denied an abortion with a sucky life, abuse, neglectance or any other form of child abuse caused by this. The long time of persecuting homosexuals, women and black people. Thank you Christianity, thank you God. Amen[/quote]
Don't forget Judaism and Islam in that too. Both of those religions are against homosexuality and abortions. Just saying...[/quote]
If you had done your research you would have known that passive euthanasia is legal in Israel. Islam can be completely rejected as their countries are far behind on the technological scale. The only thing preventing euthanasia in the western world is Christianity.[/quote]
You still owe Christianity an apology They aren't the only ones who want the anti-gay/anti-abortion lifestyle enforced. (inb4 massive RAGE)

[quote="Woeler1"]
[quote="TheRoguePrince"]That goes for Catholics not Protestants, to be fair they are both parts of Christianity, but don't loop the Pope in with Baptists and all lol[/quote]
We're talking about Christianity here. As far as I know protestantism and catholicism are both a branches of Christianity.[/quote]
Did you really just say that? O.O
Yes, Catholics and Protestants are very different. As different from Simba and Kovu, Sunni and Shiite, Drenthe and Flevoland, and the Old and New Testament LOL. Do some research between their differences between generalizing kthxbai.

[quote="Woeler1"] you take away a child's right to decide over its own body[/quote]
Ok, you make a good point there and I agree, but lol, once again you can't blame this one on religion. It's another example of "Weird USA acting differently from the rest of the world".

[quote="Woeler1"]Of course the old testament is still relevant? Where do you get all this nonsense? It's like talking to Bill O'Reilly. The old testament is a holy book of the Jews and the basis for the new testament. You don't kill witches ANYMORE. And you know why? Because the world has become subject to argument, sober discussion, science and secular-moral philosophy.[/quote]
The Old Testament may be included in the Bible nowadays, but it's not a source for laws. Testament means "will or covenant". We still use the word today when we speak of a person's "last will and testament." These names indicate that the Bible is composed of two wills of God -- an old will and a new will. It would be like your uncle leaving a lot of money to 150 different charities and then he changes his will to give to 3 charities. If you post a big long list of organizations the money was suppose to go to and say they should be followed, his lawyer would laugh and say: Read the New One Kid!

[quote="Woeler1"](e.g. a kid with the potential to become the scientists that cures cancer now believes that the earth is 4000 years old and created by an invisible entity that defies physics. That is not moral. That is stupid.)[/quote]
It's silly (and a little bit judgmental) to say that people you believe those things cannot make good scientists. You are saying I must believe every scientific theory about the age of the universe before I can work in a cancer laboratory? Are you saying we should weed out these "kooks"? How do you suggest we do that? Thought police? 1984?

[quote="Woeler1"]Just to be clear: I don't need to stop doing anything.[/quote]

[Woeler]

[quote="TheRoguePrince"]
You still owe Christianity an apology They aren't the only ones who want the anti-gay/anti-abortion lifestyle enforced. (inb4 massive RAGE)[/quote]
You must be kidding me. Christianity owes society an apology for the dark ages, the massacres on European soil and the total annihilation of the native American people, the witch hunts, the 30 years war, the religious cleansing, the crusades, the inquisition etc.
They ARE the only recognizable group in the west that massively oppose gay marriage and abortions, which should not even be discussed. Everyone knows that all people should have the right to marry whoever they want.

[quote="TheRoguePrince"]Did you really just say that? O.O
Yes, Catholics and Protestants are very different. As different from Simba and Kovu, Sunni and Shiite, Drenthe and Flevoland, and the Old and New Testament LOL. Do some research between their differences between generalizing kthxbai.[/quote]
Maybe you should open a dictionary and look up the word ''generalizing''. I said protestantism and Catholicism are both branches of Christianity. Prove me wrong...

[quote="TheRoguePrince"]Ok, you make a good point there and I agree, but lol, once again you can't blame this one on religion. It's another example of "Weird USA acting differently from the rest of the world". [/quote]
It's origin of modern circumcision is religious, that is fact. It is not some weird American thing. It has nothing to do with nationality. It is practiced in the middle-east too, and in Africa. The only difference is that those people aren't as civilized as we are.

[quote="TheRoguePrince"]The Old Testament may be included in the Bible nowadays, but it's not a source for laws. Testament means "will or covenant". We still use the word today when we speak of a person's "last will and testament." These names indicate that the Bible is composed of two wills of God -- an old will and a new will. It would be like your uncle leaving a lot of money to 150 different charities and then he changes his will to give to 3 charities. If you post a big long list of organizations the money was suppose to go to and say they should be followed, his lawyer would laugh and say: Read the New One Kid![/quote]
Its not a source for laws? Really? So gay marriage is just illegal because of some other non-existent factor besides religion? Same goes for Euthanasia and abortion? Look at my country, we're secular now, and just like a flick of a switch abortion was made legal, gay marriage was made legal and euthanasia was made legal. No there is clearly no link at all...

[quote="TheRoguePrince"]It's silly (and a little bit judgmental) to say that people you believe those things cannot make good scientists. You are saying I must believe every scientific theory about the age of the universe before I can work in a cancer laboratory? Are you saying we should weed out these "kooks"? How do you suggest we do that? Thought police? 1984?[/quote]
If one were to study cancer, he or she needs to research human DNA, the mutation of DNA in a cell causes cancer. You can not possibly research this when you do not accept evolution (which basically is the constant mutation of DNA). One can not do any biological or geological research believing the earth is 4000 years old. You can not cherry pick on science. It's very simple, if you support a religion which has committed atrocities, know that you can be called an enabler.

FYI, we already have a thought police. God can convict you of thoughtcrime. The whole concept is evil. It is a horrible idea that there is someone who owns us, who makes us, who supervises us waking and sleeping, who knows our thoughts, who can convict us of thoughtcrime, who can judge us while we sleep for things that might occur in our dreams, who can create us sick (as apparently we are) and then order us on pain of eternal torture to be well again. To demand this, to wish this to be true is to wish to live as an abject slave.

It is a wonderful thing in my views, that we now have enough information, enough intelligence and I hope, enough intellectual and moral courage to say that this ghastly proposition is probably founded on a lie. So that we may never let religion rule our world again, like the dark ages. The darkest ages in human history. Occam's razor suggests we should dispose unnecessary needless assumptions, that's what I propose we do.

Luckily, scientists think that atheists will outnumber theists by the year 2038

[quote="TheRoguePrince"]
[quote="Woeler1"]Just to be clear: I don't need to stop doing anything.[/quote]
[/quote]
I don't believe acting immature will gain you the upper hand here.

[Azdgari]

So! Who believes this vein of argument is going anywhere at all?

[WildSimba]

[quote="Azdgari"]So! Who believes this vein of argument is going anywhere at all? [/quote]

I don't. Religious debates never get anywhere. Both sides of the argument are always too full of themselves to admit they're wrong, but it's their belief so all power to them. Can't argue with ignorance.

But it's usually best to steer clear of these things (especially since I don't know how appropriate it is to be talking about the mutilation of male genitalia on a TLK website lol).