Father mistakes son for burglar and kills him with gun

Re: Father mistakes son for burglar and kills him with gun

Postby Woeler » October 22nd, 2012, 5:25 pm

[quote="KentuckyWildcat"]1. Singling out the number of crimes involving guns is not an accurate measure of how violent a society is. In many cases, countries with tight gun laws or even outright bans have a higher rate of violent crime in general than neighboring countries that permit gun ownership. This suggests that cultural and socio-economic factors influence the rate of violent crime, not the availability of guns.[/quote]
Point out to me one developed country that comes close to the United states in murder rate. Even relative, none come close. The availability of guns does make it a lot easier to murder someone.

[quote]2. There is not a recorded instance in either the US or Europe in which passing gun control measures reduced the violent crime rate from the level it was at before such laws were passed. In several cases, violent crime subsequently increased. [/quote]
I'm not saying that banning guns is the option nor did I say that gun control is the ultimate solution. What I do say is that tighter regulations on guns do improve society. A gun ban would be impossible. It has already got out of hand. Making them legal was wrong to begin with. Look at societies that had them banned all along. Way better, way less violent and way more free of fear.

[quote]3. Records show that murderers almost always have a prior criminal record, and are thus the kind of people far less likely to obey gun laws in the first place.[/quote]
Again, look at Europe. Care for the poor so that they don't have to become criminal. Tighter gun laws will at least make it a lot more difficult for such people to get a gun, especially for the psycho homicides.

[quote]4. The areas of the United States that permit gun ownership have a significantly lower rate of violent crime than those that have enacted gun control laws. [/quote]
Simply not true

[quote]5. Further, violence is not spread evenly in America. Certain sub-cultures have much higher rates of violence. For example, urban African-Americans have a much higher murder rate than whites and rural African-Americans despite being far less likely to own a gun. If guns are really the problem, rather than say, gang involvement, this trend would necessarily be the opposite.[/quote]
Again why do gangs exist? Poor people with no jobs, left alone by the government. People are not born criminal, they get criminal. Because lets be realistic: what other options do you have without a job, healthcare or education and a government (and by extension a people) that refuses to care for its poor?

is it simply coincidence that all other developed nations are less violent? I don't think so. Culture and social factors?
Please explain these images. Much more violent history.
Image
Image
etc.

I think, no, I know that this is hypocritical. People who are laying on their deathbed, dying in misery do not have the right to end their lives while other people can simply kill a burglar, or people can be sentenced to death.

The point I am trying to prove is that guns are bad, very bad and that killing another human being is also bad. Owning a machine that was designed to murder isn't something to be proud off and it is only necessary because guns were made legal in the first place. Guns in the United States have become a necessary evil and the American government should apologize for that, they should show some shame to all those people that have been the victim of this practice. It has become impossible to reverse it, but people should actually look at the world and admit that it is NOT a good thing.

[quote="KentuckyWildcat"]Again Woeler, your emotional and politically charged argument isn't supported by the statistics[/quote]
Because killing is obviously... right? If you've done one thing by saying this it is proving my point on the general attitude towards gunmurders.
There are those who complain about the wind, there are those who hope the wind will change, --though the wise-- the wise adjust their sails.
Woeler
User avatar

Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership

Posts: 4936
Joined: August 29th, 2011, 2:10 pm
Location: Always on the move
Gender: Male
Pride Points: 120

Re: Father mistakes son for burglar and kills him with gun

Postby Regulus » October 22nd, 2012, 8:26 pm

^ Only one little problem, Woeler:

The US is the third most populated country in the world, aside from China and India.

10,000 out of the 300,000,000 US population is only 0.003%.

However, there's still quite a big difference, if this can be trusted.

Although to be fair, we need to look at the big picture, which includes homicides without the use of guns. The US has an intentional murder rate of 4.2 per 100,000, 3.3 of which of those are from guns, assuming Woeler's average statistic of 10,000 is correct.

Our European brethren are far lower in intentional murder rate, with 1.2 in the UK, 1.1 in the Netherlands and France, and a low of 0.8 murders for every 100,000 people in Germany.

Now, let's take a look at this. The US has 88.8 guns for every 100 residents. Germany has 30.3, France has 31.2, Netherlands has 3.9. It seems like there's some correlation here.

But, let's also consider that Switzerland has 45.7 guns for every 100 people, and a murder rate of 0.7 people for every 100,000.

Yes, I know wikipedia isn't a reputable source. But, very few statistics are actually unbiased, so I'd guess this is as close as I'll ever get to coming to a sound conclusion. So, basically: the only thing statistics can truly prove is that statistics can be manipulated to prove anything you want them to.

Still, I can't disagree with this:

[quote="Woeler1"]Only in America can gun ownership be a right and healthcare be a privilege... this asocial political system is the thing that forces people into crime anyways.

This ladies and gentlemen, is how the American government solves the problem. Instead of supplying healthcare, jobs and education to the ones that are poor and forced into a criminal society, they just supply the richer, luckier ones with guns to kill them. This is disgraceful, it is inhuman, it is obscene and it comes from a clutch of people who are not willing to grow with modern society, who are not willing to support one another and who are not willing to create a stable, well faring and social society.[/quote]

Give a man the what he needs and he will not need a gun.
Regulus
Is differentiable...

User avatar

Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership

But convergence is not guaranteed.

Posts: 10994
Joined: September 29th, 2011, 1:19 am
Location: W⋅N²=(40.498°)³, W²⋅N=(57.345°)³
Nickname(s): Reg, Regs, Last Person to Post
Gender: Male
Pride Points: 206

Re: Father mistakes son for burglar and kills him with gun

Postby DGFone » October 22nd, 2012, 8:32 pm

Guns are killing machines? Not really. For one, there are many people who rely on guns just to live. In the Midwest of the United States, hunting is not a hobby, but a way to get extra meat on the table. Guns are precision instruments - if you want to kill many people, don't use a gun.

A perfect example of this is the vast differences in the number of deaths in WW1 and WW2. The guns used in the wars were largely the same (Germany, Russia, and Britain all used WW1 designs for their rifles). What then made such a big difference?

Aircraft. A technology today that most people will say is a good thing.
Image
DGFone
Got wings

User avatar

Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership

Watch me soar

Posts: 11871
Joined: March 14th, 2011, 6:14 am
Location: Flying several thousand feet off the ground.
Nickname(s): Planes, DGF, DG
Gender: Male
Pride Points: 138

Re: Father mistakes son for burglar and kills him with gun

Postby Regulus » October 22nd, 2012, 8:40 pm

^ This is the 21st century. Nobody needs a gun to live in the lower 48, at least. UPS and FedEx ship to the midwest, you know. :P
Regulus
Is differentiable...

User avatar

Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership

But convergence is not guaranteed.

Posts: 10994
Joined: September 29th, 2011, 1:19 am
Location: W⋅N²=(40.498°)³, W²⋅N=(57.345°)³
Nickname(s): Reg, Regs, Last Person to Post
Gender: Male
Pride Points: 206

Re: Father mistakes son for burglar and kills him with gun

Postby DGFone » October 22nd, 2012, 8:41 pm

[quote="Regulus"]^ This is the 21st century. Nobody needs a gun to live in the lower 48, at least. UPS and FedEx ship to the midwest, you know. :P[/quote]

Unless you are near the border with Mexico...

Or you hunt for food...

Or you don't want Obama to guarantee that you won't have a gun...
Image
DGFone
Got wings

User avatar

Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership

Watch me soar

Posts: 11871
Joined: March 14th, 2011, 6:14 am
Location: Flying several thousand feet off the ground.
Nickname(s): Planes, DGF, DG
Gender: Male
Pride Points: 138

Re: Father mistakes son for burglar and kills him with gun

Postby Woeler » October 22nd, 2012, 8:43 pm

[quote="DGFone"]Guns are killing machines? Not really. For one, there are many people who rely on guns just to live. In the Midwest of the United States, hunting is not a hobby, but a way to get extra meat on the table.[/quote]
Uhm, yeah you can get guns here if you're a hunter. You just need a special license to be a hunter and to get your gun.
[quote]Guns are precision instruments - if you want to kill many people, don't use a gun.
[/quote]
Which is an argument against what? Homicides happen, whether you find guns efficient or not.

[quote]A perfect example of this is the vast differences in the number of deaths in WW1 and WW2. The guns used in the wars were largely the same (Germany, Russia, and Britain all used WW1 designs for their rifles). What then made such a big difference?

Aircraft. A technology today that most people will say is a good thing.[/quote]
Come back to me when the average homicidal citizen can legally buy, fly and posses an F-22

I can pretty much agree with Regulus and his statements.
There are those who complain about the wind, there are those who hope the wind will change, --though the wise-- the wise adjust their sails.
Woeler
User avatar

Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership

Posts: 4936
Joined: August 29th, 2011, 2:10 pm
Location: Always on the move
Gender: Male
Pride Points: 120

Re: Father mistakes son for burglar and kills him with gun

Postby Regulus » October 22nd, 2012, 9:28 pm

There seems to be almost no correlation whatsoever between gun possession and murder rate. Heck, the only thing I can find is that anarchy leads to murder, more so than anything else.

So, before I joined this discussion, I had no strong opinion either way. I am not a gun owner, nor do I really care about owning guns, nor do I think a lack of guns helps significantly reduce crime rate.

I see no reason to change that apathetic point of view.

If it's really about saving lives, why don't we create more regulations to make our roads and vehicles safer? Every year, about 3x as many people die in automobile accidents, and many more are injured. Every day, we typically spend several minutes at least hurling along at speeds several times faster than evolution could possibly have prepared us to go, and all we have to protect us is a little bubble of metals and glass. Hint: smart cars really aren't all that smart.
Regulus
Is differentiable...

User avatar

Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership

But convergence is not guaranteed.

Posts: 10994
Joined: September 29th, 2011, 1:19 am
Location: W⋅N²=(40.498°)³, W²⋅N=(57.345°)³
Nickname(s): Reg, Regs, Last Person to Post
Gender: Male
Pride Points: 206

Re: Father mistakes son for burglar and kills him with gun

Postby DGFone » October 22nd, 2012, 9:49 pm

[quote="Regulus"]
If it's really about saving lives, why don't we create more regulations to make our roads and vehicles safer? [/quote]

If you want to save lives and think that banning guns is a good idea, then you will also need to ban these:

Cars
Swimming Pools
Common household chemicals (bleach and stuff)
Fireplaces

All of these things kill more children than guns.
Image
DGFone
Got wings

User avatar

Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership

Watch me soar

Posts: 11871
Joined: March 14th, 2011, 6:14 am
Location: Flying several thousand feet off the ground.
Nickname(s): Planes, DGF, DG
Gender: Male
Pride Points: 138

Re: Father mistakes son for burglar and kills him with gun

Postby Woeler » October 22nd, 2012, 10:25 pm

Those things are not intended to kill with. Guns are. Guns are a bad thing, and it's a shame that it's too late for drastic measures. Reversing it is impossible. It is a shame indeed it had to come this far.

I just can't get enough of saying it: it's a shame.
Last edited by Woeler on October 22nd, 2012, 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There are those who complain about the wind, there are those who hope the wind will change, --though the wise-- the wise adjust their sails.
Woeler
User avatar

Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership

Posts: 4936
Joined: August 29th, 2011, 2:10 pm
Location: Always on the move
Gender: Male
Pride Points: 120

Re: Father mistakes son for burglar and kills him with gun

Postby RayCat » October 22nd, 2012, 10:29 pm

Ahhh well, just thought I'd point out that guns aren't always for killing Woeler :P pretty sure people here in England would usually use guns to injure somebody if they were robbing somethin' or doing anything they shouldn't be- but not killing them
My graphics thread
Image
And where the journey may lead you
Let this prayer be your guide
Though it may take you so far away
Always remember your pride
RayCat
User avatar

Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership

The lion sleeps no more

Posts: 5968
Joined: July 28th, 2009, 5:25 am
Location: The corner of the earth
Gender: Female
Pride Points: 55

PreviousNext

Return to The Den

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 885 guests