Kopa's death: False

Kopa's death: False

Postby Nightwere » January 26th, 2011, 3:49 am

I'll be honest, the first time I saw this theory I said "No." And I STILL say no, but up until now I never found a reason. Well a friend of mind named "LadyKakata" who can be found on dA(warning, she doesn't like SP so prepare to bristle) expressed all my thoughts exactly. She's a bit of a swearer so I cleaned up the dialouge a bit :)

"It is a debate if it causes sides to stop and think about their points. To be honest, there wil be points where I have one opinion and you have another, and we'll either agree, disagree, or think about our respective points in ways that we didn't think before until the debate

the 'Kopa was killed by Zira' thing really does stick in my craw though, it makes absolutely no sense. Scar got away with killing Mufasa in the original without Queen Sarabi tearing him to shreds because she didn't know he did it. Simba was the only one who could have told her the truth, as well as Zazu if Zazu had witnessed the events (which he didn't; he was knocked out by Scar) and the hyenas if the hyenas suddenly decided to betray Scar. However, Simba ran away and the hyenas interests run with getting Scar into power, ergo, Sarabi does not know the truth until Simba forces it out of Scar as an adult.

If Zira killed Kopa, she'd need to deal with the entire Pride and Pridelands as well as Simba. A small list of reasons that this theory does not work follows thus;

Zira is not mentioned in SNA
No Outlanders are mentioned in SNA. Or TLK for that matter
Kopa is not mentioned in SP
Zazu only mentions 'murderous outsiders' without mentioning what it is that they have done, and neither Simba and the Pridelanders nor Zira and the Outlanders bother to clairify what it is that is supposed to have happened. Zazu implies they've killed someone, but Zira implies it's because she's pissed at Simba doing something ('when I think of what that brute did'), i.e. killing Scar. Really, neither says what it is and perhaps this is very deliberate in order for the fandom to make up the reason so the freakin scriptwriters don't have to. 'Mystery' is easy to try and apply to 'plothole' you jerks!
If Zira killed Kopa, she'd need to deal with Simba. He's already lost his father and in essence his childhood, he doesn't need another death so soon and to someone as precious as a first-born child. He's clearly got a temper and a vengence streak, look at how he told Scar to his face that he didn't deserve to live and clearly doesn't listen to Scars pleas for mercy. He wouldn't be afraid to kill his sons murderer, no matter how happy he is being back in the Pridelands or how good at heart he is
Nala is a warrioress and has spent basically her childhood and adolecense in a Hellhole with the threat of forced marriage/rape over her head as well as being terrorised by hyenas with little to no food available. She doesn't take Simba's BS, or anyones BS, and the idea that she'd let her childs killer walk free is utterly insane. She has a greater reason to murder Zira, as Kopa is her first child and maternal instinct is not a mistress that backs down and mellows out when it comes to the death of a child. Zira would be a smear of organic jam on the walls of Pride Rock
The Lionesses would all be protective of the first new Royal child into the Pride since Simba. They would be cautious of Zira to start with and hearing that she murdered Kopa and in essence the guarentee of a golden future would send them into a frenzy.
The Pridelands is just getting back into shape and wouldn't take lightly the death of the golden Prince to favour the 'chosen' successor of the male who MESSED UP in the first place. As much as the Pridelands is a passive character in the first film, there is still clearly management karma in place and the animals DO have an interest in the monarchy that manages them (they came to Simba's ceremony). They would have a problem with everything being screwed up again and would possibly intervene if the consequences of not doing so were severe enough (they can move onto other lands though, so it's a case of weighing moving again against killing a stupid lioness)
Timelines, as mentioned before
If Zira had managed to kill Kopa and make it look like an accident, that does not explain why NALA is so relaxed in SP NOR why Simba doesn't give Kiara a full protection squad to make sure the same thing does not happen again. The idea that Kopas death resulted in Simba's irritating behaviour, yet it doesn't make it strong nor change Nala's perception of cub safety, is incredibly stupid
If Zira killed him and made it look like an accident, then why is she banished? To say she killed him but was banished for another reason is like picking two full, rich fruits and tossing one casually into the trash for you to pick out and dust whenever it suits you. Stick with your choice or don't freaking pick two fruits.

tl;dr Zira killing Kopa is stupid >:C

I really hope I'm not completely steamrollering you though; it's rare to find articulate and thoughtful members of the TLK community that don't buy into the crap of TLK2 (*IchigoSeppun and ~werebereus are two)"-LadyKakata

Wise words even I could not argue with.
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Re: Kopa's death: False

Postby Annie » January 26th, 2011, 9:26 am

To be honest, I didn't read much of this, but I do get the basics of what's being said and I don't think she killed him either. If anything, I think the "Murderous Outsiders" refers to the death of Sarabi, since her vioce actress died inbetween the movies (R.I.P) and the fact she wasn't seen, or mentioned in SP (maybe too painful for Simba to talk about?)


Though, really, I think Kopa has taken over this website XD he's a fictional cub, which most don't even consider canon! I know thread this will spark another massive argument, where things that have been said a million times will be said again. I think y'all should give Kopa a rest and agree we all have different theories about him, regardless if we think he's canon or not.
Just to throw it out there, this is my theory (Since I know he's not movie canon, but he is in the TLK world now, so he's pretty much here to stay, regardless of what anyone else says): He was born way after Kiara, probably before K+K became King/Queen. He lived a happy life, but did get plenty of adventures, as seen in the books (possibly more, too. A lions life is not an easy one!) He didn't really want to be King, but he did help out with the royal duties, such as border patrol and maybe some Majordomo work after Zazu passed away and before they found a new bird.

Soo yea. That's what I THINK. it's not canon and I don't care, it's my way of filling in the blanks.
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Re: Kopa's death: False

Postby PiP » January 26th, 2011, 11:30 am

I've come across a few of LadyKakata's views one SP. Some I agree with, some I don't but I'll stick to Kopa here. I don't believe Kopa died either and he defiantly was not killed by Zira (in my opinion). I think that the "murderous outsiders" refers mostly to Scar killing Mufasa. In SP the pridelanders where quite one minded and so I believe that because the outsiders where loyal to Scar they saw them as being no better than him and in a way responsible for the death and tragedy that happened to the lands.

As for my theories on Kopa I have to agree with Annie a lot here. I think he was born after Kiara, it explains why Simba and Nala where so relaxed with him and why they where so protective over Kiara, I think it was simply because she was their first cub (first time mothers I've know are a lot the same with their firstborn) and also after SP the outlanders have joined the pride and the lands are in a time of peace allowing kopa to have the carefree lifestyle shown in Six New Adventures. Well thats how I see it anyways, but I still really love seeing/reading others theories after all thats the wonderful thing about sub-canon, it can be played with and thought about while with movie canon it's really set in stone (in my mind anyway) :)
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Re: Kopa's death: False

Postby Eli_Ayase » January 26th, 2011, 12:00 pm

Guy we dont know what happened to him. MOST PEAPOLE SAY- He died in ziras paws. but it LA Dosent like sp it dosent mean anything, shes just a fan artist :P
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Re: Kopa's death: False

Postby Panda-chan » January 26th, 2011, 12:50 pm

[quote="Nightwere"]Scar got away with killing Mufasa in the original without Queen Sarabi tearing him to shreds because she didn't know he did it. Simba was the only one who could have told her the truth, as well as Zazu if Zazu had witnessed the events (which he didn't; he was knocked out by Scar) and the hyenas if the hyenas suddenly decided to betray Scar. However, Simba ran away and the hyenas interests run with getting Scar into power, ergo, Sarabi does not know the truth until Simba forces it out of Scar as an adult.[/quote]
*nods* I can agree with that, especially considering the additional fact that as soon as Simba forced the confession out of Scar that he had killed Mufasa, all the lionesses including Sarabi and Nala rushed enraged toward him so they could tear him apart.

[quote="Nightwere"]If Zira killed Kopa, she'd need to deal with Simba. He's already lost his father and in essence his childhood, he doesn't need another death so soon and to someone as precious as a first-born child. He's clearly got a temper and a vengence streak, look at how he told Scar to his face that he didn't deserve to live and clearly doesn't listen to Scars pleas for mercy. He wouldn't be afraid to kill his sons murderer, no matter how happy he is being back in the Pridelands or how good at heart he is[/quote]
Sorry, but that's not true. He may have wanted to kill Scar, he may have actually told him that deserved to be dead, but he never actually killed him. In fact, Simba was willing to show mercy and let the very lion that had killed his own father and betrayed his pride go, in much the same way he later banished Zira and the Outlanders. It was only because Scar betrayed Simba's trust again (kicking dust in his eyes) that provoked him to resume fighting. And even then, it was mostly a defensive battle (he kicked him off the ledge, rather than finishing him off right there).
The hyenas, too, were banished, even though they had contributed significantly to Scar's evil plan to get rid of Mufasa and Simba. It's true that they never killed anyone, but they clearly had the intention to, and that should have been enough (according to your argument) for the lionesses to try to kill them in revenge. Instead, they were simply and mercifully banished. So maybe the same happened in Zira and the Outlanders' case?

[quote="Nightwere"]The Lionesses would all be protective of the first new Royal child into the Pride since Simba. They would be cautious of Zira to start with and hearing that she murdered Kopa and in essence the guarentee of a golden future would send them into a frenzy.[/quote]
You're assuming way too much here. Although it's true that the lionesses would be protective of the firstborn cub for the reasons you mentioned, I don't think this would constitute to downright frenzy, even if it did result from the murder of a cub. No one exactly went berserk when they found out that both the king and his successor (aka Mufasa and Simba) had died. Instead they just accepted that it had happened and moved on with their lives.

I'm not saying that you're wrong or disproving your theory. In fact, I completely agree with your opinion. In my mind, Zira never laid a paw on Kopa at all. But the reasoning for some of your points is flawed and kind of makes your argument weak. :/

EDIT: Holy crap, I was not expecting to ramble for so long 0.o;
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Re: Kopa's death: False

Postby FlipMode » January 26th, 2011, 12:57 pm

You have to remember that the 6NA tells a different story from the films, it just uses some of the characters and introduces new ones. If we are talking about cannon wise to the film plot, then no she would not have killed him.
Some say that when she hands Kovu to Simba in TLK2 that it is referencing she might have done: but I do not think so, I just think that she knew he would not take him.

Also IF Zira was banished to the outland before Kopa was born, then she would not have to cover her tracks when plotting against him as it would be more of revenge than much else. But I just do not see what motive she would have for doing so to be honest.
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Re: Kopa's death: False

Postby SummerSnowLeopard » February 15th, 2011, 11:52 pm

I never beleived that whole "Zira killed Kopa" stuff and now I have reasonable facts.
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Re: Kopa's death: False

Postby zbscullawl » March 14th, 2011, 6:34 pm

thank u it was bugging me for a while kopa never met zira or the other outsiders did he?
yay my first comment on somethin
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who killed kopa?Zira or someone in real life?

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Re: Kopa's death: False

Postby DGFone » March 15th, 2011, 6:48 am

The real world to the rescue! The Lion King, The Lion King 2, and TLK:6NA were all made by three different studios. It is highly probable that the creators of Simba's pride never came across 6NA before.
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Re: Kopa's death: False

Postby Mike » March 16th, 2011, 1:21 am

I don't think that any of the reasons presented there are particularly valid. 6NA isn't cannon, and it's even possible to disregard the books entirely and still reasonably believe that Kopa did live, and was killed by Zira. The cub seen at the end of the movie is not the same cub as Kiara, despite the retconing with TLK2, and Zira's exile is a perfectly reasonable punishment for Kopa's death, especially if it wasn't outright known/proven.

We have never seen any lion in TLK cannon invoke the death penalty. Not even for the hyenas, which are seen as lesser and inferior species. There is certainly no indication that lions were killed for their crimes. On the other hand, we <do> have multiple in-universe examples of exile being used as punishment for grievous crimes. (Kovu's banishment from the outsiders, ostensibly for Nuka's death, and his banishment from the pridelands, ostensibly for an assassination attempt on the reigning King)
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