Share your unpopular LK opinions

[Gemini]

Though that being said I don't think Simba should have forgiven the Outsiders so quickly (even after Kiara's whole "we are one" monologue and Zira's death).

-What differences do you see?
-Well, they are openly supporting the lion that killed my father, convinced me it was my fault, destroyed the Pride Lands and tried to kill me several times. They also tried to kill me like a few days ago and spent the last hour or so trying to kill me again and the rest of my Pride. Also your boyfriend originally joined the pride so that he could kill me. So, yeah, plenty of differences. Not to mention that their leader is about to try to kill me again and will nearly kill you in the process.

Hm, not sure my teenage daughter and a few sunbeams after a rainstorm would be enough to convince me that it was time "to put the past behind us"

Well, as you know very well, I am definitely a Scar supporter, but I will agree with you on those points. Especially on this. Kiara's argument was... I dunno... kind of weak. I guess it's good that the feud ended at some point, but still, that's a lot of scores left unsettled - I don't think the majority would be happy about that, especially the Outsiders.

Personally, I can't understand why Vitani was the one who switched over first, seeing as she was Zira's daughter (presumably) and one of her most zealous supporters, not to mention Simba was the one who had inadvertently killed her older brother/one of her only living family members (again, presumably) a couple of hours before. I mean, I guess maybe after he died she might have thought 'enough is enough', but still, the Outlanders had the strength and the numbers to take on the Pridelanders. Why wouldn't she want to avenge his death? They were already headed for war anyways. Why not finish the job they'd been training for all those years, instead of having Nuka die in vain?

That said, I don't see why a simple monologue would change the sentiments of either Simba or Zira. (Even though it's about something Simba said to Kiara himself but never really followed. :s) I mean, I guess some of the Outlanders weren't at fault, such as Kovu, since he was a cub when he was exiled... and personally I think it wasn't right of Simba to exile innocents like that... but really, most of them on both sides seemed to be beyond talking it out at that point. It's not like Simba can just say 'whoops, sorry, my bad' after forcing entire families to spend years in a barren wasteland by themselves. I don't think that would go over too well.

I dunno. I mean, I guess Vitani might not have known her father that well, but still... I don't think she'd be one to betray the rest of her family like that, especially since Simba had not been kind to her and her pride up to that point. I'm personally kind of wondering if she and the other Outsiders didn't smother Simba the night after TLKII ended. I mean... maybe they weren't really over it after all? Maybe Vitani was just fooling the Pridelanders to get an opportunity to avenge Nuka and her parents? Maybe she inherited some of Scar's cunning? Ya never know. (Hmmm... that'd be an interesting story...)

[Ninaroja]

Simba fell for Nala so quickly because she was the first girl he'd seen for years

[Perrys Girlfriend]

Simba fell for Nala so quickly because she was the first girl he'd seen for years

I laughed so hard when I read that.

[Carl]

Though that being said I don't think Simba should have forgiven the Outsiders so quickly (even after Kiara's whole "we are one" monologue and Zira's death).

-What differences do you see?
-Well, they are openly supporting the lion that killed my father, convinced me it was my fault, destroyed the Pride Lands and tried to kill me several times. They also tried to kill me like a few days ago and spent the last hour or so trying to kill me again and the rest of my Pride. Also your boyfriend originally joined the pride so that he could kill me. So, yeah, plenty of differences. Not to mention that their leader is about to try to kill me again and will nearly kill you in the process.

Hm, not sure my teenage daughter and a few sunbeams after a rainstorm would be enough to convince me that it was time "to put the past behind us"

Well, as you know very well, I am definitely a Scar supporter, but I will agree with you on those points. Especially on this. Kiara's argument was... I dunno... kind of weak. I guess it's good that the feud ended at some point, but still, that's a lot of scores left unsettled - I don't think the majority would be happy about that, especially the Outsiders.

Personally, I can't understand why Vitani was the one who switched over first, seeing as she was Zira's daughter (presumably) and one of her most zealous supporters, not to mention Simba was the one who had inadvertently killed her older brother/one of her only living family members (again, presumably) a couple of hours before. I mean, I guess maybe after he died she might have thought 'enough is enough', but still, the Outlanders had the strength and the numbers to take on the Pridelanders. Why wouldn't she want to avenge his death? They were already headed for war anyways. Why not finish the job they'd been training for all those years, instead of having Nuka die in vain?

That said, I don't see why a simple monologue would change the sentiments of either Simba or Zira. (Even though it's about something Simba said to Kiara himself but never really followed. :s) I mean, I guess some of the Outlanders weren't at fault, such as Kovu, since he was a cub when he was exiled... and personally I think it wasn't right of Simba to exile innocents like that... but really, most of them on both sides seemed to be beyond talking it out at that point. It's not like Simba can just say 'whoops, sorry, my bad' after forcing entire families to spend years in a barren wasteland by themselves. I don't think that would go over too well.

I dunno. I mean, I guess Vitani might not have known her father that well, but still... I don't think she'd be one to betray the rest of her family like that, especially since Simba had not been kind to her and her pride up to that point. I'm personally kind of wondering if she and the other Outsiders didn't smother Simba the night after TLKII ended. I mean... maybe they weren't really over it after all? Maybe Vitani was just fooling the Pridelanders to get an opportunity to avenge Nuka and her parents? Maybe she inherited some of Scar's cunning? Ya never know. (Hmmm... that'd be an interesting story...)

Personally...

I don't consider any of Zira's children to be Scar's. They were originally supposed to be, but that was weird and got changed, and Zira's personality fits more with an obsessed stalker/fangirl than a mate. Not to mention that Kovu and Vitani are the same age, and while it's possible for one cub to be from one male and another from another... if Vitani was Scar's, then Zira would have no way to know that Kovu wasn't. So it just doesn't line up.

That said, I don't think any of the Outlanders besides Zira had any loyalty to Scar. They switched sides so quickly, this implies they felt no devotion to the cause. It's hard to say for sure since obviously these characters weren't in the first movie, but most of them just seem to want to not be forced to live in the Outlands any more and to actually be able to eat. They never thought Simba would accept them, since they'd been banished (my theory being that either they showed up after the first film, and looked similar enough to Scar and Zira for Simba to panic, or they were friends with Zira or something and not necessarily loyal to Scar, as Zira herself is the only one who ever mentions wanting to avenge Scar, other than the brainwashed Kovu) and so they fought until they heard Kiara's little speech and saw that it affected Simba. Once they saw he wasn't cruel like Zira insisted and was willing to attempt to make up for his mistake, then why should they fight and risk more injury or the Outlands?

Zira is the only one who refused to be swayed because of her ridiculous devotion to Scar. She was like a cult leader, trying to brainwash the others, and obviously succeeding at least in part. When they saw Simba was going to stop the fighting and invited them to come back with him, I'm sure they realized that any more deaths (like Nuka's) were unnecessary. Vitani probably didn't want Zira to die while fighting and probably didn't want to fight Kovu, being her only brother left, and so I can't see any reason for her not to switch sides.

Additionally, in regard to Niña's post... none of the lionesses during Scar's reign knew he had done what he did to Simba, and there's absolutely 0 evidence that any of the Outlanders besides Zira were Scar loyalists. She was, certainly, but none of the others seemed to care, as I mentioned, they'd have refused to switch sides like Zira did if they were devoted to him as well. This means that Simba exiled innocents, and no matter how you look at it, that is true, because Nuka, Vitani and Kovu were definitely not guilty of anything, being cubs. Exiling innocents and forcing them to starve is worse than what Scar did, because Scar could not cause the drought on the Pride Lands. Had there been no drought, the hyenas would not have caused the lionesses to starve, because, as we know, the hyenas were already poaching in the Pride Lands, so they were eating anyway. This is not to say that Scar wasn't evil because he did do bad things. But it is to say that Simba did exile multiple innocents and leave them in the Outlands to starve; innocents who were cubs.

Their attempts to kill him are entirely justified, as is their decision to join him at the end.

Yes, Scar did horrible things to Simba. But you can't punish others for his actions. Scar, and Scar alone, ruined Simba's life, not Zira or any of the other Outlanders. Once Scar is dead, he has paid. Zira's devotion makes her dangerous, yes, and she wanted revenge, but that only gives cause to punish her. Her cubs, and any of the Outlanders not devoted to Scar (again, judging by how quickly they changed sides, meaning none of them) were only a threat because they had been exiled. They were victims of tyrannical acts perpetrated by Simba in his paranoia.

[Gemini]

Oooooh, another interesting post. I'll get started. *rubs hands together gleefully*

Starting off with this.

It's hard to say for sure since obviously these characters weren't in the first movie

I'll just stop right there and say that this is, by far, the biggest potential caveat in the second film, and it deserves to be highlighted, underlined, boldfaced,asterisked... and whatever else. It's important. I think the sole reason that these debates exist, and the major flaw that the second film has (forgiving its general sub-parness compared to TLK) is its huge use of retroactive continuity. I've heard it time and time again, and frankly, the appearance of Zira and the others brings up way more questions that it solves. Most of the fan theories out there (mine included) are opinions and matters of personal preference that, to be honest, may as well be built on a foundation of sand because the creators never really answer any of our questions. So, most discussion of the second movie is going to be highly subjective.

Keeping this in mind, I'll continue on.

Not to mention that Kovu and Vitani are the same age, and while it's possible for one cub to be from one male and another from another... if Vitani was Scar's, then Zira would have no way to know that Kovu wasn't. So it just doesn't line up.

Well, there's nothing to say that they are littermates, either. They might not be related at all, despite being the same age. The heritage of the cubs is brought up time and time again by the fans, even though it'll probably never be answered definitively (unless Disney comes out of its little hole and tells us all tomorrow morning), but really there's not a whole lot that can be ruled out. That said, the filmmakers intention was to have only one cub, who was Scar's, but it was changed due to incest and such, so frankly, I usually just pull Occam's Razor and say that they're Scar and Zira's unless otherwise specified (or if the story I'm writing demands something else and/or I feel like making up some AU-ish backstory, but those backstories probably aren't 'true'). That said, Kovu could literally just be some cub that they found in the middle of nowhere and adopted. I have a hard time believing that he's related to Zira, personally, because that means she had to have cheated on Scar at some point. Vitani could still very well be related to Scar, though. We don't have anything that says otherwise.

I'm sure they realized that any more deaths (like Nuka's) were unnecessary. Vitani probably didn't want Zira to die while fighting and probably didn't want to fight Kovu, being her only brother left, and so I can't see any reason for her not to switch sides.

I see this angle and understand where you're coming from. I guess what I meant to say, though, is that it still seems weird to me that Vitani would be the one to switch sides. I mean, you literally see her face melt from this determined expression to one of sudden realization in about two seconds. That said, she's betraying a member of her family no matter which way she goes, so I don't see why she wasn't a lot more conflicted about the whole thing.

This means that Simba exiled innocents, and no matter how you look at it, that is true, because Nuka, Vitani and Kovu were definitely not guilty of anything, being cubs. Exiling innocents and forcing them to starve is worse than what Scar did, because Scar could not cause the drought on the Pride Lands. Had there been no drought, the hyenas would not have caused the lionesses to starve, because, as we know, the hyenas were already poaching in the Pride Lands, so they were eating anyway. This is not to say that Scar wasn't evil because he did do bad things. But it is to say that Simba did exile multiple innocents and leave them in the Outlands to starve; innocents who were cubs.

Their attempts to kill him are entirely justified, as is their decision to join him at the end.

Yes, Scar did horrible things to Simba. But you can't punish others for his actions. Scar, and Scar alone, ruined Simba's life, not Zira or any of the other Outlanders. Once Scar is dead, he has paid. Zira's devotion makes her dangerous, yes, and she wanted revenge, but that only gives cause to punish her. Her cubs, and any of the Outlanders not devoted to Scar (again, judging by how quickly they changed sides, meaning none of them) were only a threat because they had been exiled. They were victims of tyrannical acts perpetrated by Simba in his paranoia.

Ditto to literally everything you just said. I completely agree.

[Lauren]

Nuka should've been a character that had a low self-esteem.

- A majority of the characters have a lot of determination and charisma for the goals and future positions they are going to be in. When Simba was a cub, he was excited about being king and couldn't wait to rule the kingdom just like Mufasa when he got older. Scar plotted to murder both Mufasa and Simba in order to steal the position as king and eliminate his nephew from the bloodline. He succeeded and got exactly what he wanted for the amount of time he had before he died. Zira felt confident that Kovu would overthrow Simba by killing him and taking over the Pridelands. She wanted her revenge on Simba to succeed and make Scar proud for avenging his death. Nuka, like Scar, was jealous that his brother was the Chosen One and believed that he would be a better king that he would. He tried to impress his mother and prove himself worthy, but ended up being killed in the process of attacking Simba near the dam. He's one of the characters from the whole trilogy that I don't like that much due to his obnoxiousness and unpleasant presence everytime I watch SP. If he was one of those characters that felt doubtful about himself by saying things like, "I don't think I would live up to the standards of being king," then I probably would've tolerated him a bit more and be invested in his character. It would've made him very different compared to many of the lion characters and he wouldn't have to be shouting a majority of his dialogue like Timon does. His death would've been more tragic if he had that type of personality seeing how people do have difficulty having a positive self-esteem in real life. I'm not saying it's good, but it happens out there.

I believe Simba is the very first Disney character to suffer from PTSD, which is why I'm one of the few who is not angry with him in SP.

- I made a thread about this topic. If you want to know my whole thoughts about this, you can read about it here.

As much as love both songs, I prefer "He Lives in You" over "Circle of Life".

Zira is more creepier than Scar for an antagonist.

"The sound of Simba's dying gasp...His daughter squealing in my grasp...His lionesses' mournful cry...that's my lullaby."

- That right there tells me that she has serious psychopathic issues.

Even though I laugh at a few scenes, I still dislike TLK 1.5.

[Elton John]

All of the returning actors for simbas pride REALLY phoned in their performances. They just sound so bored.

The actor for adult kovu is very charismatic and for all the issues kiara had her actresses performances was not one of them. Yeah and kiara is adorable, though that most likely not unpopular.

I also thought that niketa calames cub nala performance was better than the adult nala performance by moira kelly. I love cub nalas sassy adventurous attitude while some of the lines adult nala had sounded a bit... Off?

[Ninaroja]

^ Speaking of niketa calame, she got married a couple of days ago I follow her on Instagram


KOPA. IS. NOT. REAL.

[S1mb4 D4 L10n]

Well, adding onto that ^

I found Six New Adventures to be too childish for me to enjoy. I don't really have an interest in all the semi-canon characters to be completely honest.

I said it

[Sigurd]

TLK does not have the best songs of any Disney movie. The Hunchback Of Notre Dame does.