For those who believe in the "Scar Is Nala's Father" Theory

[Carl]

And that's why I don't necessarily agree with that theory, though it is an interesting take in my opinion.

Although, if I remember correctly, in that theory, Scar was unaware of her birth as she was his and Naanda's, who left the pride for some reason (it's been a while since I read this version), and she was actually born before or around the same time as Simba. Though I don't remember for sure and will look into it again.

[Regulus]

[quote="Julie Skywalker"][quote="Regulus"]I honestly don't understand how that means anything. If Nuka had said "Dad wasn't even [Kovu's] father," that doesn't make much sense, does it?[/quote]

It also doesn't make sense for him to refer to his father by name. Some kids do that, but it's usually seen as disrespectful, and I doubt Zira would have let that fly.[/quote]

I refer to my parents by name, sometimes, when I talk about them in third person. It depends on the context of the situation.

[quote][quote]I can't imagine Nuka complaining any more than he was. That was literally all he did, from the beginning up until his last 10 seconds of screen time. I imagine that he didn't brag about it because he knew Zira would ignore him anyway.[/quote]

Yes it was the only thing he did. But even if it was Zira's plan, if he were Scar's son, why would he help Kovu get what he felt was entitled to him? The only reason he did it was to try and please Zira, which he wanted to do so she would realize that he was "better" than Kovu.[/quote]

Not sure what you mean by that.

[quote][quote]Not if Nuka was the rejected son of Scar. You're assuming that if Nuka was Scar's son, Scar would have liked him--which is essentially the exact opposite of my theory.

I believe that Scar despised his own son at first sight, disowning Nuka completely. Not only is it in line with Scar's character to perform such a selfish act, but it justifies Zira's search for another male and another cub to bear, as well as Nuka's deep feeling of rejection that persists in every scene that he's in. Ultimately, that's what defines him as a character.[/quote]

I'm not assuming any such things- I don't think Scar liked any cubs. I am assuming that based on the movie (not TLKoB as I've not seen it) it was out of Scar's character to be interested in having cubs, and Kovu had to be born after Scar's death. That being the case, he couldn't have favored Kovu over Nuka and even if he were Nuka's father and had rejected him, Nuka would be all that Zira had left of Scar, and it seems to me like she would focus on proving to him that Nuka was capable instead of on having other cubs that he might like better.[/quote]

I haven't seen TLKoB either, I'm just going by what I've heard. Scar has his own song, where he asks Nala to be his queen and produce a heir, and that's why she musters the courage to run off.

Scar wasn't interested in cubs; he was interested in having a legacy. That's why I think that once Nala left, Scar started to take an interest in Zira, even if only for his own selfish purposes.

It's a good point about Zira, though. The only reason why she wouldn't have thought like that is if she happened to agree with Scar, in thinking her son was worthless.

It's odd, but fitting for her character, I suppose.

---

Now, here's a few more lines which suggest that Zira was a Pridelander during Scar's reign:

[quote]ZIRA: Kovu was the last born before you exiled us to the Outlands, where we have little food, less water... [/quote]

Exiled, by definition, means to be forced to run away from home. Simba was exiled after Mufasa's death, because that was his home. Zira claimed to be exiled, because she felt that the Pridelands was her home as well.

[quote]ZIRA: What were you doing?
KOVU: N-nothing!
ZIRA: Who has made us Outsiders?[/quote]

This implies that Zira was part of Scar's pride before she was exiled. She was made an outsider, meaning it wasn't always that way.

[quote]KOVU: Simba!
ZIRA: Who killed Scar?
KOVU: Simba!
ZIRA: And what have I told you about them?[/quote]

In this case, Zira is clearly referring to Simba and Simba's pride, not necessarily the Pridelanders as a whole.

[quote]
ZIRA:

I've been exiled, persecuted
Left alone with no defense
When I think of what that brute did
I get a little tense[/quote]

It's a bit of a stretch, but I'm assuming this means she viewed Scar as her "defense."

[quote]Now the past I've tried forgetting
And my foes I could forgive
Trouble is, I knows it's petty
But I hate to let them live[/quote]

This one can have many interpretations, but the simple fact that she can't forget the past suggests that it isn't something she could let go of. Thus, it implies that she was a native Pridelander. At the very least, her ties to the lion kingdom were far stronger than that of a simple admirer of Scar.

[quote]ZIRA:

Payback time is nearing
And then our flag will fly
Against a blood-red sky
That's my lullaby![/quote]

It seems pretty obvious that Zira feels like she has been wronged by Simba in some way, on a very deep, personal level. She's not like "how could Simba have done this to Scar," but more like "how could he have done this to us?"

I just can't see Zira thinking that way if she wasn't a native Pridelander.

I take that back, actually. If she was a true native Pridelander, she would have been around during Mufasa's reign, and she would have known Simba as the true prince. When I say native Pridelander, I really mean more like naturalized Pridelander. xD

[quote="Julie Skywalker"]I've also seen a theory that Zira is Scar's cub, and while I don't necessarily agree with it, I don't exclude it as a possibility, after all, she never struck me as old enough to have been Scar's mate.[/quote]

Are you kidding? She has the voice of a smoker. She sounds like she's old enough to be Rafiki's grandmother.

[Carl]

Well, I'm not going to keep arguing about it. I personally don't think Scar had any cubs in the canon verse, not Nala, not Nuka, not Vitani, certainly not Kovu, and not Zira. In the world of fan theories... it varies by the fic whether or not I'll accept him as having cubs. If it's well written and keeps everyone in character and makes sense in some way, then I'm fine with it. I've even heard of AU's where people have made Simba into Scar's cub, and I'm like "well, I'd have to read it before I make a judgement."

[quote="Regulus"]Are you kidding? She has the voice of a smoker. She sounds like she's old enough to be Rafiki's grandmother. [/quote]

Young people can sometimes have raspy voices by nature. I heard girls having smoker's voices like that so far back as elementary school. And she doesn't look that much older than Simba and Nala to me.

As I said, I don't really agree with that theory anyway. I just think it's an interesting twist. Though honestly, in the way it was presented, it seems more plausible to me than the theory of Nuka being Scar's son directly.

Though, honestly, as far as canon, it doesn't really matter to me who was or wasn't Scar's cub beyond the fact that Kovu isn't. Meanwhile in the fandom's theories and fics, the possibilities are endless so long as they're done convincingly.

[Regulus]

Every SP theory that I've ever heard in regard to Zira's history has at least one little hole of logic in it. To be honest, I don't really even consider any of it to be canon, because of that. If we all completely disregard Zira, Nuka, Kovu, and Kiara's existence, I'm okay with it. No problem. No harm done to the good stuff.

But, what I'm really referring to is the fact that we always have to resort to "Zira is crazy" to explain things. That simply means the writers didn't try hard enough.

Yeah, that's right. I said it.

They were making a direct-to-video sequel, not a feature film. The writers knew they could get away with such mistakes, because the expectations weren't as high. They also didn't have the same sort of budget, either, so it wasn't entirely their fault.

There. Now don't hate me for bashing SP. xD

[DGFone]

If the other Disney direct-to-TV sequels are any to go by, we are very lucky with what we got in TLK 2.

Not only was SP made direct-for-TV, but the budget given to make it was also equivalent as just make a specially long TV show. We could have had a much worse sequel - an extra long special of Timon and Pumbaa! While that TV show has its good points, I think we would all agree that seeing an "official" movie along that quality would be very scarring indeed. The next great outbreak of PDST cases around the world.

All joking aside, it does mean that most fan theories probably put more thought and effort into it than the writers. Not because the writers didn't try, but because they didn't have the resources to care, as Regulus explained.

So that out of the way, out of these two fan theories: Zira and the Outsiders were Pride Landers all along and were exiled after Zira tried something after Scar's downfall, or the theory I made up today, which is that she and the Outsiders came to the Pride Lands after Scar's fall, and the disillusioned Zira tried to bring back the Glory of Scar which caused the exile. Which of the two theories do you guys prefer and why? Which one makes more sense in context of both movies?