The Lion King Characters That Just Aren't There

[xLilacVixenx]

[quote="Pixielicious"]Yes I did. And by the way the only reason why I asked you to chill is because up till your last post you seemed friendly. I haven't gone against your words, I actually agree with what your'e saying. I don't think Kopa existed. I don't think Mheetu existed. I was just saying that the theory makes sense, to me. I'm not saying it is what happened, because I don't think it acutally happened - but to me, it makes sense. OK?[/quote]

-Nods in agreement-

Kopa's story is believeable and if it were true I could go with it. And even though you have good intentions, it's her opinion, Superbabysimba. She has the right to tell her feelings without being reprimanded.

Now, I don't want to make a huge deal about this, so let's pretend it never happened.

[SuperBabySimba]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound unfriendly. And I wasn't trying to attack your opinion and feelings on what you feel about Kopa theories as they are. Perhaps I shouldn't have assumed that your liking of the Kopa theory is blinding you from the film's very valid reasoning, as basically I was just wondering and you didn't answer my question of why do you feel Simba's childhood isn't enough to make him over-protective of Kiara? If it's not that you like the Kopa theory too much, then what is it? Sometimes people are asked to back up their opinions and that's all I was meaning to ask you to do in the post.

[Pixie]

All is forgiven. And thanks for intervening Vixen, this couldv'e gotten bad
Well to answer your question, the only way I can word it is that Simba's childhood doesn't seem enough to make him that over protective. I know his dad died, and that he blamed himself and all, but it's a strange way for all that insecurity to come out. I think that if he was, say, super keen on teaching Kiara and preparing her to be queen, thus preparing her for the time that he is not there (not saying that he didn't, but his main trait was over protectiveness, we must agree) more than sheltering her and kinda making it harder for her, that would have worked more.
To explain this deeper, I must break it down into small bits.
Mufasa dies - Simba feels responsible, doesn't feel good enough - comes back, has Kiara - becomes overly protective of Kiara, somewhat stunting her.
to me that doesn't make sense.
BUT,
Mufasa dies - Simba feels responsible, doesn't feel good enough - comes back, has Kiara - teaches her well so that she can be an awesome Queen without him.
This would make sense.
AND,
Mufasa dies - Simba feels responsible, doesn't feel good enough - comes back, has Kopa - Kopa is killed by Zira - Simba becomes overly protective of Kiara.
To me, this makes sense too.
I just personally think that Simba's hardships and Simba's attitude towards Kiara don't exactly match up. And the theory of Kopa makes sense - losing a child would probably make you over protective of another.
That is all.
But still, Kopa and Mheetu don't exist in the canon world.

[SuperBabySimba]

But you're looking at the wrong events/aspect of Simba's childhood.
Even the film itself does not refer to Mufasa's death and whatever it did to Simba as for a reason for the over-protectivness. So why do you?

The film points out Simba's childhood's dangers and how he put himself and Nala into them, right after it first points out that Kiara is just like Simba was then. Remember?

Here:
Simba first and foremost yaps to Kiara about how she could get hurt, be stepped on or even get lost if she isn't careful. And only later remembers to add the stay-away-form-the-outlands and doesn't even make sure that Kiara understands but refuses to tell why. That's not exactly saying his main source of worry and trauma comes from Mufasa's death or the Outlanders but instead from Kiara herself combined to everything around her.
And then, when Kiara finally is let go and she runs off:
N: "Simba, who does she remind you of?"
S: "What? Who?"
N: "She's just like you when you were young."
S: "Exactly! Do you realize the dangers we put ourselves in?"
N: "You mean, the dangers you put us in."

There you have it. In a nutshell the reason for Simba's over-protectiveness. They were in no way talking about Mufasa's death or anything related to it. They were talking about the life threatning dangers the cub Simba's wild nature put them in while agreed that Kiara is just like he was - as in very likely to get herself killed all by herself.

It also clearly states that Simba's insecureness comes from how he, now grown up and expected to be a responsible king and father, had realized the life threatning dangers he had got them into as a child and seen how much like him his own child is in those dangerous characteristics, and thus he over-reacted. They were not talking about Mufasa and the Outlanders were put in as a secondly important addition which wasn't really that essential as he didn't bother to make sure Kiara understands that part.

[Pixie]

Youve raised a good point, but I still think that it's not enough. The main reason is that Nala isn't fussed and lets Kiara do what she wants. Nala was put through the same dangers, and presumably more under Scar's rule. And you'd think that Simba was more worried about Kiara not having enough experience and becoming queen prematurely than her getting into trouble. I think the loss of Mufasa is more on Simba's mind than his childhood mischief. I know the quote shows that he is worrying about that, but the rest of the film (pretty much) is about Simba worrying that he's not doing enough to be like his father. Thus, you'd think he'd teach Kiara better.

[xLilacVixenx]

-Mind boggles-

Wow, I had to read that twice to kind of get it, lol.

[quote="SuperBabySimba"]Simba first and foremost yaps to Kiara about how she could get hurt, be stepped on or even get lost if she isn't careful. And only later remembers to add the stay-away-form-the-outlands and doesn't even make sure that Kiara understands but refuses to tell why.[/quote]

I've noticed this as well when I watched the film today. But my theory is this: when Simba's discussing the dangers to Kiara and Zazu butts in, he mentions they're nothing more than a bunch of 'muderous outsiders'. To Simba, that pretty much summed it up and there was nothing more to explain. Either that or he didn't want her getting too curious and finding out who these 'outsiders' are.

[SuperBabySimba]

[quote="Pixielicious"]Youve raised a good point, but I still think that it's not enough. The main reason is that Nala isn't fussed and lets Kiara do what she wants. Nala was put through the same dangers, and presumably more under Scar's rule. And you'd think that Simba was more worried about Kiara not having enough experience and becoming queen prematurely than her getting into trouble. I think the loss of Mufasa is more on Simba's mind than his childhood mischief. I know the quote shows that he is worrying about that, but the rest of the film (pretty much) is about Simba worrying that he's not doing enough to be like his father. Thus, you'd think he'd teach Kiara better.[/quote]

Well, yeah, you're right, I too made it sound too simple when the film makers naturally would look into the entity of the film. So let's take a better look what we have in the first film and why he is completely different case from Nala:

X Childhood dangers of even life threatning kind because of the cub he used to be and so is Kiara and he has realized that.
- This is the only thing Nala can relate to as a parent.

X Losing Mufasa which made him insecure.
- Nala can't know how this feels like as she has never lost a close parent who had promised to always be there for her. She always had Sarafina there for her and Sarabi and the rest of the pride too.

X Simba was all the sudden ripped away from his seemingly careless and irresponsible way of life and thrust into you-must-take-your-responsibilities way of life without any kind of build-up for it while he had ran from it for several years and dealt with everything all alone. He apparently never told Timon and Pumbaa anything about his past.
- Whereas Nala had faced and dealt with her troubles, with her loved ones there for her, for all those years and thus they made her stronger, more confident and secure of dealing with anything the future might bring.

X And Simba was desperate to be a good king and parent like his father had been.
- Naka didn't have so much pressure and expectations on her shoulders while she was psychologically much more ready to deal with it all which she shows couple of times in the film.

--- Put all these four things together: of course he's gonna over-do his fathering in protectiveness and make misjudgements as a king and be a bad father in many aspects. And of course Nala is gonna be the stable, wise and strong one.

As in he had been traumatized in many ways as a child, went on for many years without dealing with the traumas and problems and never ever gorwing up. Then, all the sudden he is yanked away from it to take the heavy responsibilities of a king and soon of a father. This would lead him, as said, to realize all the dangers he put them in as a child, and how insecure he really felt because no one had guided him into adulthood and parenthood. He just suddenly was expected to be all grown up and kingly! The Scar added to that by showing that a wolf can lurk in every guise and be even the closest to you which all this could've easily be enough for the exile of Zira and all those heir to Scar, but also Zira may have tried to murder him in revenge of him killing Scar.

That kind of life and inner life can create somewhat complex and confusing psychological state and it is pointed out that he wasn't thinking clearly of why he is the way he is but that subconsciously he knew that essentially because Kiara is just like he used to be. This would also be a reason why he didn't realize that how he treated Kiara, might actually work against what he was aiming at (as in her becoming a good and strong queen one day.) As he meant well but his consciousness was over-written by two concepts: insecure and danger. Hence, his likely inner thoughts: 'I was never prepared for any of this. I don't even really feel grown up yet. I want my Daddy. ... OMG my child is just like I was as a cub and then I got myself almost killed! OMG my uncle was evil and I didn't know while he could've killed me at any time and now there are even his heir around Pridelands and Zira is obsessively in love with Scar - so danger can lurk behind every rock! Best start from making sure Kiara stops being like I was and that nothing ever happens to her!"

In short: Simba was not a grown up inside while feeling insecure for many reasons related to his elders and how suddenly he was thrown into heavy repsonsibilities, so immaturely and selfishly he used the easiest way to protect his own child - which was also the way that made he himself feel the most secure and certain about everything and believed it was the best for Kiara too. Apparently it didn't make him feel too secure but certainly more so than risking Kiara's safety by some braver and healthier attitude.

[Pixie]

Wow you really raised good points there. Youv'e debated your point clearly, well done. You have made me reconsider my thoughts, but I do still agree with the Kopa theory. I stand down, sir