It's official, there's gonna be a tlk remake.

[Rollo]

I wholeheartedly believe that there are things that could be improved on in the first movie, and that I hope will be improved in the remake! TLK has its faults and they need to be corrected in this. I just find it absurd when people exaggerate TLK being put on a pedestal when in comparison to the sequels, that somehow it isn't worthy of actually being put on that pedestal, lol. Like, are we talking about the same movie? Not just as a TLK fan, but as a movie fan in general. TLK is great. I've met/known Disney fans who don't like TLK, which is fine, but they still agree that it's one of the greatest Disney movies purely down to hardwork and effort. I have not yet heard the same things about the sequels.

To be completely honest, I think a lot of people do try to glorify SP because it's edgy, and I guess more modern in terms of plotline. When I rewatched SP as an early teenager, I realised that's why I liked it as a kid. It has the forbidden love story, the tragic male hero, the whole 'us against the world' theme... a lot of kids like that. A lot of adults like that. It's an indulgence thing, and SP absolutely reeks of teenage-melodramatic-lion-edge.

Kovu is just straight out of an anime to me, lol.

--

Eh, maybe we just took different things from Scar's character, Lionvengers. I just don't see him as being particularly bratty in the first half of the movie at all.

Nuka's character development isn't stunning or anything, but it is there. For example, he goes from catching field-mice for his mother, a sort of innocent cub-like thing, to literally killing himself for her. He's also portrayed as a bit of a doofus in the movie, and that all changes when he dies. His character suddenly becomes very solemn because you realise that he was neglected and the only way he managed to get Zira to acknowledge him was when he died. Maybe he realised that too, that catching mice wasn't enough. He had to literally go after Simba, a lion who could EASILY tear him to shreds, to please her. His character gets developed because I think he mentions that he could do all the things Kovu does, but Zira never gives him a chance. He takes matters into his own hands by the end of the movie.

[Elton John]

That's ok.

I view Scar as bratty all the way as he feels he should be king, getting all huffy and puffy at Mufasa early on, even killing family members because he doesn't get his way in life.

People think of Fui as bratty but she's just confident to me. She does seem bratty at times, whining a bit... but who doesn't whine from time to time? Difference between her and scar's whining is that Fuli doesn't really have a false sense of entitlement. She sees herself as an equal to the guard. She does what Kion says because she trusts his judgement, not because she is submissive to his will. She doesn't want to be the leader of the group in spite of her great physical abiities.

[Rollo]

I always kind of took Scar's brattiness for motivation, which is seen as a stronger trait in a villain than just stomping his feet and hoping good things come his way. He's tyrannical to me, he's a dictator, clearly, which is pretty scary. He kills his brother and emotionally manipulates his nephew and then attempts to kill Simba. He sets himself up for being terrifying, and then that all comes crashing down when we see him again, lounging on the throne, making Zazu sing to him. When the hyenas and Sarabi mention the lack of food, he basically has a temper tantrum and slaps her. He comes across as a coward. His character development is almost a regression. It's a different kind of character development, but it's still there

[Captain Cupcake]

He also has an unwillingness to let go of his "rightful" place. It's obvious that he's aware of how much of a wasteland the kingdom has become. He's just too proud to admit it. He had worked hard to become king and is so consumed with power that he doesn't want to lose it all, even though all he rules is just a wasteland at that point. It'd be interesting if the movie delved into that a bit more. Give hints of the slow realization that his position isn't as glorious and as amazing as he thought, and that all this disorder is steadly breaking him. It'd certainly be more compelling than going into some predictable backstory about how Mufasa was always the favourite and blablablabla. The sympathetic angle would just be cheap and lazy, really.

[Elton John]

I guess.

His view of what being a king is childlike, the same as what Simba felt like when he was a cub which explains his childlike behavior, and being called out on it made him get pissy, while when Simba grew up he took responsibility after Nala called him out on his childish behavior and Mufasa reminded him that he is more than what he has become while Scar... isn't...OOH SIMBALISM

[Hatari05]

[quote="Rollo"]I actually think the character development in SP should've been 100% better because one big chore had already been alleviated for the creators--the universe had been established. We had to spend quite a while in TLK establishing the universe and the setting. I agree that Mufasa has no character development but...why would he need it? He dies incredibly quickly in this movie. Character development cannot be done that quickly without it coming across as completely shoddy and poorly written. A great example of this is in Gremlins where Phoebe Cates' character just suddenly decides to get her development over and done with by telling a story about her dad dying on Christmas Eve. It's supposed to be sad, but it comes across as hilarious because it's out of nowhere. A bit off-topic, yes, but a good example for those of you trying to figure out the importance of pacing your character development.

Another good example of this is... Vitani. Where is Vitani's character development? Oh, right at the end when she suddenly decides to go against her mother's wishes. Uh, sorry, what? We have almost no forewarning to that, it just happens. As a result, it's lackluster and her character suffers for it. It's not developed--it's just an instant change of character that makes no sense whatsoever. (If we had a couple of scenes showing Vitani doubting her mother, then yes, that would've been excellent character development. But we don't.)

Nuka has great character development. Probably the best in the entire film. He's not my favourite character by any means, but certainly the most interesting one in the trio of Outlander cubs.

Kiara's character development is there, but again, similarly to Vitani, there's nothing that really shows this because Kiara seems to never face any consequences, or have a moment where she realises she's wrong. A lot of people refer to her as a mary-sue because of that and I do agree that it's hard for her to be taken seriously when she seems to be the all-mighty, all-knowing heroine. I would relate to her much better if she made actual mistakes and had to pay the price. Her character development would be a lot stronger if she did.

Kovu's development could've been wonderful, but falls flat because he doesn't really have a character at all. He's a puppet for Zira, but also lacks personality in general. He is very much the 90s archetypal emo devilishly handsome male protag. We still see this in a lot of cartoon media today. If he had been fleshed out more, and we got a lot more information on his family, his relationship with Scar and his own inner turmoil, aside from a brief scene with Kiara under the stars and him looking sad during a song, then it would've been pretty good. You know, this is TLK we're talking about. The original movie already proved that audiences can take the lion drama seriously without a song playing in the background.

Simba's further character development in TLK II is actually brilliant. I think he acts exactly as he should do, so I'll give them that. They respected him quite a bit, although the fandom make him out to be totally evil in this which is insane, but non surprising.

But yeah, character development is absolutely essential to a story. TLK wouldn't have worked if Simba's character hadn't developed and that he realised he had to face his responsibilities. We wouldn't have had a story.

EDIT: Sorry for all the edits, lol, but I don't think people realise that TLK is a coming-of-age movie. It's Bambi in Africa. What other character development did we see in Bambi aside from Bambi's himself? It's Simba's story, not anyone else's. The reason we have more character development in Simba's Pride is because it's Kiara and Kovu's story. It's impossible to compare the two in terms of character development because these are not similar stories.

We see Scar's character development. He goes from being pretty self-assured in his ways and rather dignified, to being a huge spoiled brat.

We see Nala's development, though it's subtle. She goes from being a carefree cub, much like Simba, to having to grow up instantly--compare that to Simba, who has the luxury of spending a pretty long time being a manchild. [/quote]

I didn't even acknowledge Vitani as an example of character development Vitani is at the top of my flaws with that movie. It has nothing with it being edgy I don't like meaningless dark stuff never have.

Kovu has a personality and it's the one someone like him would have. You say it's stereotypical but you can say that about anyone plus don't use the term emo it doesn't mean what people say it does. Kovu is lost confused and uncertain of his path. He follows in Scar's paw prints despite not really wanting to. He knows nothing about fun nor does he even understand the concept of it. He is an outsider in more ways than one and feels a great sense of burden with his mission and legacy not unlike Simba. Kovu however does show a cocky arrogant side that matches when he was a cub. He was rather prideful when declaring his rescue of Kiara and even smirks when she recognizes him. He clearly takes pride in his hunting skills, the lesson scene in particular highlights Kovu's confidence. Kovu is also very emotionally closed enough not expressing any real emotion unless required to or it is forced out. He rarely if ever raises his voice a result of being bred into a soldier by Zira. Kovu actually shows two very clear sides the soldier drone who only talks in one or two tones and is very guarded and closed off and the cub he used to be who is more expressive uncertain and opened. He fears his mother as the outland scene shows and doesn't seem to have any goal of his own beyond his mother's intentions. The whole point of Kovu is that he is a lifeless puppet who becomes a real person, him being Zira's puppet is kind of the point if he had his own agenda and agreed to the mission for personal reasons he wouldn't of betrayed the outsiders. The only reason he did is because he had no personal investment beyond his mother's wishes, nothing waiting for him. He was a puppet who realized this and when he found something he valued there was no reason to abandon it. His personality isn't very prominent at first glance but once you look at his psyche it's there and it's pretty clear. Just because Kovu is broody doesn't mean he didn't have a personality. Kovu wasn't a nineties anti hero because he wasn't an anti hero at all he didn't have his own morals he was a lifeless soldier, an anti hero is defined usually by their morals and methods Kovu didn't have any morals just what he was told.

This is just part of how much I can go into this I didn't even touch on his relationship with Kiara or Simba, there is so much I can say. This is a reoccurring thing I'm noticing Kiara has an arc and it's not what you think it is at least I'm pretty sure of that. The thing here is this Nuka, Zira, Simba, Kovu, Kiara you could break them down psychologically that's how much we know about them through what we get. All five of those characters I could write a mini psychiatric file on on their personality traits what lies hidden beneath them, what drives them and more importantly why. What are their flaws where do these flaws come from. I can't do this with anyone but Simba in the first movie maybe Scar but no one else.

That's my point LK is great with a great message and a great character arc for Simba with a great villain, LK II however just goes further and deeper there is so much buried beneath the surface regarding the characters, morals and themes. I have seen LK and LK II too many times to count but I'm still discovering things about SP I didn't notice and I have been able to recite it for years. These Thesis I write are because I keep discovering more and more as I delve deeper and deeper. I glorify SP because it deserves it because there's so much there that so few noticed that I did, did it take time yes it did but it was worth it. That's my reasoning I don't think there's anything else to say, we clearly are coming from completely different perspectives so no point in prolonging this. Just consider what I said about saying the remake cannot be as good that's not a good mind set to watch a movie with.

[Rollo]

Hatari, I wasn't directly replying to you when I wrote that. I was just stating my opinion in general. It wasn't aimed at anyone. There's a whole other bunch of people in this thread too, I would've quoted you like you have done for me if it was a direct reply, so please don't take these things so personally.

Also, that's fine that you feel you can analyse SP in such depth because I doubt anybody else could. I know for sure that I don't see it as anything but a corny 90s sequel. If it makes you happy to analyse it so much, then please continue to do so!

But don't take it so personally that I don't like SP. This isn't the first time I've noticed you've come after me for saying I don't like this movie I'm allowed to express my dislike for it just as much as you're allowed to analyse it and clearly cherish it above the original--that's totally fine. But let's not take it to heart so much, or try to change other people's points of views.

[Hatari05]

I had no issues with your opinion I was actually trying to make a completely different point but things got a little off track way off track actually, which may of been my fault.

Anyway let's get back on topic any possible ideas or characters that you guys think would be cool to see?

[gothprincesskiara]

(hearing all the blah blah blah blah jugment) And Im so glad im ignoring all this judgment over my 2 #1 favorite films, because I dont want the over negative thinking to ruin what is a big part of me, despite as I have said before, I dont like how Disney changed there employees when it comes to movies, and I have already said change is hard get used to it and get over it. I am proud to be a fan of anything to do with the lion king, cause of how beautiful the world even if they didn't make it perfect the second time, its better then nothing, even though the beautiful elements African music even in the second one which I find the best isn't everyone's cup of tea when it comes to there taste in music genres(to me I just dont get how they dont see the beauty in TLK2 like I do, I could teach it in one day). I have said before Im glad we are getting another different version of the lion king, because with lion king 1, 2, 1,1/2 the musical, TLG and now this remake, I get to have a more different variety of the world to embrace, no matter the differences, no matter how much people say it should be this way or it should have been better this way, no matter any kind of negative judgment I take it with a grain of salt and I make it work, why? because im jealous of Harry Potter fans and Star Wars fans especcialyl, I wished for lion king to have a continuous infinity of chronicles and stories that never end, but no Lion King was not made like it (the fan fiction was all I ever got) BUT this is the closest im ever going to get, and if lion king is my escape from reality and the paradise in my mind and for my imagination then im I'll live with it all for the rest of my life, LONG LIVE THE LION KING OLD AND NEW, because I see a deeper meaning to TLK then just it being based off Hamlet, never cared for the hamlet part I have always ignored that, I see lion king as a good lesson to life and my dream vacation...Africa. and above all I love lions and animals, put it all together and you got TLK

[Carl]

What negative thinking and judgement are you talking about? All I've seen here is people discussing what things were in the original films that weren't necessarily as good as they could have been and things they are hoping for in the remake. None of it is negative judgement, it's all personal preferences, all of which stated rather politely. Basically everyone was agreeing that the remake is probably going to be a good addition to the franchise, too, so I don't know what you're getting at here.