Kopa

[Algi]

sorry, what do you mean?

[SuperBabySimba]

[quote="Algi"]sorry, what do you mean? [/quote]

I don't know what they mean but I can easily come up with three reasons for why the murder theories make absolutely no sense to the film's content:
1.) If there had been a murdered cub of Simba and Nala in the film's story, the script writers would have included that information into the film in some visible way. In a flashback, or a line by some character, or something that literally tells the event. Professional film makers do not hide crucial and essential plot points in their films - they in the least mention them in the character's lines. But they didn't in this film's case resulting in there wasn't another cub.
2.) Such murder couldn't have been that long ago and thus Simba and Nala would have to be completely, totally grief-stricken and they're not in the film.
3.) If Nala had a son who was murdered, she too would be just as over-protective of Kiara as Simba was, but oh hey, she isn't! Instead she tells Simba that Kiara will be fine. Doesn't sound like someone who lives in an animal world and has just had her son murdererd by another lion who still lives nearby.

No way.

[KopsTheTerminator]

[quote]Very basic reason? Zira is not a thin smear of juice on the walls of the Pridelands. Plus, time-scale; Kovu needs to have been born for Scar to pick him as successor, and therefore he'd be cub-sized during Kopa's birth (assume that Kopa is Fluffy) and therefore if Kopa HAD been first, Kovu would be teenager-sized during Kiara's birth since Kopa has to be a cub, be killed, Nala to become pregnant after mourning, and Kiara to be given birth to

If Kiara was concieved not long after Kopa's birth, then Kovu would STILL be older than her but in TLK2 they are clearly the same age

If Kiara and Kopa are twins, why is Kiara NOT in SNA and WHY is he not presented along with Kiara/Kiara not presented with Kopa?

Very basically; Disney tried to retcon itself/basically forgot about Kopa because, let's face it, only hardcore TLK fans know about him and a tiny book series that I doubt even the highest internal scholars at Disney know about or remember.

Plus, if Kopa had been murdered, they WOULD have mentioned that. This is a company that is not shy about pushing family death in your face as a way of creating sympathy with characters (either from a distance with Cinderella or directly with TLK) so they WOULD have mentioned a dead brother and they WOULD have had MUCH more beefed up security with Kiara. There is NO way Nala would be that laid back about the potential death of another cub

The 'Kopa was killed by Zira' thing really does stick in my craw though, it makes absolutely no sense. Scar got away with killing Mufasa in the original without Queen Sarabi tearing him to shreds because she didn't know he did it. Simba was the only one who could have told her the truth, as well as Zazu if Zazu had witnessed the events (which he didn't; he was knocked out by Scar) and the hyenas if the hyenas suddenly decided to betray Scar. However, Simba ran away and the hyenas interests run with getting Scar into power, ergo, Sarabi does not know the truth until Simba forces it out of Scar as an adult.

If Zira killed Kopa, she'd need to deal with the entire Pride and Pridelands as well as Simba. A small list of reasons that this theory does not work follows thus;

Zira is not mentioned in SNA
No Outlanders are mentioned in SNA. Or TLK for that matter
Kopa is not mentioned in SP
Zazu only mentions 'murderous outsiders' without mentioning what it is that they have done, and neither Simba and the Pridelanders nor Zira and the Outlanders bother to clairify what it is that is supposed to have happened. Zazu implies they've killed someone, but Zira implies it's because she's pissed at Simba doing something ('when I think of what that brute did'), i.e. killing Scar. Really, neither says what it is and perhaps this is very deliberate in order for the fandom to make up the reason so the [censored] scriptwriters don't have to. 'Mystery' is easy to try and apply to 'plothole' you [censored]!
If Zira killed Kopa, she'd need to deal with Simba. He's already lost his father and in essence his childhood, he doesn't need another death so soon and to someone as precious as a first-born child. He's clearly got a temper and a vengence streak, look at how he told Scar to his face that he didn't deserve to live and clearly doesn't listen to Scars pleas for mercy. He wouldn't be afraid to kill his sons murderer, no matter how happy he is being back in the Pridelands or how good at heart he is
Nala is a badass warrioress and has spent basically her childhood and adolecense in a Hellhole with the threat of forced marriage/rape over her head as well as being terrorised by hyenas with little to no food available. She doesn't take Simba's [censored], or anyones [censored], and the idea that she'd let her childs killer walk free is utterly insane. She has a greater reason to murder Zira, as Kopa is her first child and maternal instinct is not a mistress that backs down and mellows out when it comes to the death of a child. Zira would be a smear of organic jam on the walls of Pride Rock
The Lionesses would all be protective of the first new Royal child into the Pride since Simba. They would be cautious of Zira to start with and hearing that she murdered Kopa and in essence the guarentee of a golden future would send them into a frenzy.
The Pridelands is just getting back into shape and wouldn't take lightly the death of the golden Prince to favour the 'chosen' successor of the male who [censored] UP in the first place. As much as the Pridelands is a passive character in the first film, there is still clearly management karma in place and the animals DO have an interest in the monarchy that manages them (they came to Simba's ceremony). They would have a problem with everything being screwed up again and would possibly intervene if the consequences of not doing so were severe enough (they can move onto other lands though, so it's a case of weighing moving again against killing a stupid lioness)
Timelines, as mentioned before
If Zira had managed to kill Kopa and make it look like an accident, that does not explain why NALA is so relaxed in SP NOR why Simba doesn't give Kiara a full protection squad to make sure the same thing does not happen again. The idea that Kopas death resulted in Simba's irritating behaviour, yet it doesn't make it strong nor change Nala's perception of cub safety, is incredibly stupid
If Zira killed him and made it look like an accident, then why is she banished? To say she killed him but was banished for another reason is like picking two full, rich fruits and tossing one casually into the trash for you to pick out and dust whenever it suits you. Stick with your choice or don't [censored] pick two fruits.[/quote]

[Algi]

owh......

Thank's for the information...

[atouchofgrace]

[quote="Kopa23"][quote]Very basic reason? Zira is not a thin smear of juice on the walls of the Pridelands. Plus, time-scale; Kovu needs to have been born for Scar to pick him as successor, and therefore he'd be cub-sized during Kopa's birth (assume that Kopa is Fluffy) and therefore if Kopa HAD been first, Kovu would be teenager-sized during Kiara's birth since Kopa has to be a cub, be killed, Nala to become pregnant after mourning, and Kiara to be given birth to

If Kiara was concieved not long after Kopa's birth, then Kovu would STILL be older than her but in TLK2 they are clearly the same age

If Kiara and Kopa are twins, why is Kiara NOT in SNA and WHY is he not presented along with Kiara/Kiara not presented with Kopa?

Very basically; Disney tried to retcon itself/basically forgot about Kopa because, let's face it, only hardcore TLK fans know about him and a tiny book series that I doubt even the highest internal scholars at Disney know about or remember.

Plus, if Kopa had been murdered, they WOULD have mentioned that. This is a company that is not shy about pushing family death in your face as a way of creating sympathy with characters (either from a distance with Cinderella or directly with TLK) so they WOULD have mentioned a dead brother and they WOULD have had MUCH more beefed up security with Kiara. There is NO way Nala would be that laid back about the potential death of another cub

The 'Kopa was killed by Zira' thing really does stick in my craw though, it makes absolutely no sense. Scar got away with killing Mufasa in the original without Queen Sarabi tearing him to shreds because she didn't know he did it. Simba was the only one who could have told her the truth, as well as Zazu if Zazu had witnessed the events (which he didn't; he was knocked out by Scar) and the hyenas if the hyenas suddenly decided to betray Scar. However, Simba ran away and the hyenas interests run with getting Scar into power, ergo, Sarabi does not know the truth until Simba forces it out of Scar as an adult.

If Zira killed Kopa, she'd need to deal with the entire Pride and Pridelands as well as Simba. A small list of reasons that this theory does not work follows thus;

Zira is not mentioned in SNA
No Outlanders are mentioned in SNA. Or TLK for that matter
Kopa is not mentioned in SP
Zazu only mentions 'murderous outsiders' without mentioning what it is that they have done, and neither Simba and the Pridelanders nor Zira and the Outlanders bother to clairify what it is that is supposed to have happened. Zazu implies they've killed someone, but Zira implies it's because she's pissed at Simba doing something ('when I think of what that brute did'), i.e. killing Scar. Really, neither says what it is and perhaps this is very deliberate in order for the fandom to make up the reason so the [censored] scriptwriters don't have to. 'Mystery' is easy to try and apply to 'plothole' you [censored]!
If Zira killed Kopa, she'd need to deal with Simba. He's already lost his father and in essence his childhood, he doesn't need another death so soon and to someone as precious as a first-born child. He's clearly got a temper and a vengence streak, look at how he told Scar to his face that he didn't deserve to live and clearly doesn't listen to Scars pleas for mercy. He wouldn't be afraid to kill his sons murderer, no matter how happy he is being back in the Pridelands or how good at heart he is
Nala is a badass warrioress and has spent basically her childhood and adolecense in a Hellhole with the threat of forced marriage/rape over her head as well as being terrorised by hyenas with little to no food available. She doesn't take Simba's [censored], or anyones [censored], and the idea that she'd let her childs killer walk free is utterly insane. She has a greater reason to murder Zira, as Kopa is her first child and maternal instinct is not a mistress that backs down and mellows out when it comes to the death of a child. Zira would be a smear of organic jam on the walls of Pride Rock
The Lionesses would all be protective of the first new Royal child into the Pride since Simba. They would be cautious of Zira to start with and hearing that she murdered Kopa and in essence the guarentee of a golden future would send them into a frenzy.
The Pridelands is just getting back into shape and wouldn't take lightly the death of the golden Prince to favour the 'chosen' successor of the male who [censored] UP in the first place. As much as the Pridelands is a passive character in the first film, there is still clearly management karma in place and the animals DO have an interest in the monarchy that manages them (they came to Simba's ceremony). They would have a problem with everything being screwed up again and would possibly intervene if the consequences of not doing so were severe enough (they can move onto other lands though, so it's a case of weighing moving again against killing a stupid lioness)
Timelines, as mentioned before
If Zira had managed to kill Kopa and make it look like an accident, that does not explain why NALA is so relaxed in SP NOR why Simba doesn't give Kiara a full protection squad to make sure the same thing does not happen again. The idea that Kopas death resulted in Simba's irritating behaviour, yet it doesn't make it strong nor change Nala's perception of cub safety, is incredibly stupid
If Zira killed him and made it look like an accident, then why is she banished? To say she killed him but was banished for another reason is like picking two full, rich fruits and tossing one casually into the trash for you to pick out and dust whenever it suits you. Stick with your choice or don't [censored] pick two fruits.[/quote][/quote]

^^ This is awesome.

[Algi]

The Best of non official character is Kopa!!!

[dariusgib]

i've had this conversation with SuperBabySimba before
i love Kopa but we cant really say he exhist alot.
But there are 4 loop holes
1.your one of those people who believe or act like SP never exhisted.
2. You connect them in your universe but not in the TLK universe
3.You attualy find a connection that nails all the other good counter points here
or 4. the most reliable one. That Disney makes a offical anousment and says the child at the end of TLK was kopa and that the fans can do what the hell they want with him.

So unless someone here has connections with disney or happens to be next to the directors with a bag of rupylin your just going to either wait or except he doesnt really exhist in the film universe.
and me im working on 2. and 3. I will have Kopa in my series and Sp i will!!!!!

[SuperBabySimba]

[quote="dariusgib"]3.You attualy find a connection that nails all the other good counter points here[/quote]

I consider that pretty much impossible to do when taking note of everything someone said in that awesome, lengthy post kopa23 quoted above. It's just not possible because Kopa never existed in the movie universe, so all you can do is pretend that TLK2 never existed and that the film makers never made a commentary track.

Though, it would be interesting to see someone take that quoted post and try to disprove as many points from it as they think they could.

[quote="dariusgib"]or 4. the most reliable one. That Disney makes a offical anousment and says the child at the end of TLK was kopa and that the fans can do what the hell they want with him.[/quote]

Actually, just someone from the Walt Disney Company making such official announcement wouldn't make it officially Kopa unless they also made a literal film about it. Because as long as a character isn't literally in a film in some shape or form, it simply doesn't exist in the film universe. As in, a thing has to be there to actually exist. Mere words aren't enough.

Also, even if they made such film, the cub in the end wouldn't ever, ever be Kopa - as Disney didn't create the cub in the end - the canon film's makers did and they already said it's not Kopa, and said so after Kopa already existed in the books and they likely have no reason to change their minds. So it will never be Kopa, no matter what the general Disney would say or whatever movies they could make of Kopa in the future. Because the cub in the end is canon and the canon's makers are the absolute only ones who get to decide what's in the canon source and what isn't. As in what their own creation is and isn't.

[dariusgib]

thanks for trashing dreams Supercub
thank you.
no im joking but still its quite sad no more KOpa

[SuperBabySimba]

Supercub. Lol, why didn't I think of that. It would've been shorter and easier to write a username. Oh, well.

Well, try to look at it this way; the less official information there is about a character, the more freedom it is for fanfiction, without having to categorize it as AU. Of course everything Kopa is AU in itself, but I meant for the book universe bits wherein Kopa exists.