Where were the Outsiders?

[KentuckyWildcat]

So this thought came to me recently. Where were Zira and the rest of the Outsiders during Simba's final battle with Scar? It would certainly seem that any group so devoted to Scar would have attempted to aide him in the battle, especially while the hyenas were there to provide a numbers advantage, yet the only lionesses we see are clearly on Simba's side. On the other hand, Simba clearly knows Zira firsthand and evidently banished the Outsiders himself.

I realize as I post this that the technical answer is that the plot of a sequel wasn't developed at the time, but I thought this would be an interesting topic for some fan theories. Anybody have any thoughts?

[Noah]

I've always wondered this too. I personally think that Zira formed the outsiders from lionesses that weren't affiliated with the Pridelands. She took her children when she was banished to the Outlands and slowly gathered an army of rogues to take revenge upon Simba. This would explain why everyone (minus Zira) didn't seem to have a problem "becoming one" at the end of the movie.

As for where Zira was during the final battle scene, I'm not sure. This is gonna sound stupid, but maybe she just wasn't there at the moment. She could have been off looking for food or hunting or who knows what. That would explain why she believed that Simba murdered Scar. One thing we can say, is that she isn't among the lionesses because all of them defended Simba.

Now her kids, and I use that term lightly, are another matter. Dialogue from Simba's Pride seems to suggest that Kovu had been born before her exile, but not long enough for Simba to have known him. This leads me to think Scar choose Kovu while he was still in the womb (after looking at Nuka, can you blame him?). Now you can argue that Kovu wasn't Scar's son due to it being mentioned numerous times, but the movie never says that Kovu wasn't Zira's son; his father could have been a rogue lion. Perhaps she was giving birth in the middle of the final fight scene? When she returned, she would have found her mate dead and then be forced to leave Pride Rock, thus forming a massive grudge against the Lion King.

I'm not the best Simba's Pride expert. Anybody else want to take a stab at this?

[Azerane]

It's possible that Zira was there at the end but wasn't quite as strongly devoted to Scar at that point, but it was instead his death which triggered a strong response of wanting revenge for someone she looked up to. And it was from that point on that she started becoming a problem at which point Simba banished her.

[TheLionPrince]

First off, these forum should be in the LKII section of the main board.

[quote="Noahcs"]I've always wondered this too. I personally think that Zira formed the outsiders from lionesses that weren't affiliated with the Pridelands. She took her children when she was banished to the Outlands and slowly gathered an army of rogues to take revenge upon Simba. This would explain why everyone (minus Zira) didn't seem to have a problem "becoming one" at the end of the movie.

As for where Zira was during the final battle scene, I'm not sure. This is gonna sound stupid, but maybe she just wasn't there at the moment. She could have been off looking for food or hunting or who knows what. That would explain why she believed that Simba murdered Scar. One thing we can say, is that she isn't among the lionesses because all of them defended Simba.[/quote]

Yeah, I agree with Noah on this one. Zira wasn't at Pride Rock during the final battle, and once she returned from whatever she was doing, she came to find Simba was the king, and assumed he killed Scar. Because she wasn't there, she didn't see the hyenas turn on Scar, and kill him. But, then again, Zira and the Outsider lionesses were created after the first movie so the Outsiders wouldn't physically appear anywhere no matter how hard you look.

[quote="Noahcs"]Now her kids, and I use that term lightly, are another matter. Dialogue from Simba's Pride seems to suggest that Kovu had been born before her exile, but not long enough for Simba to have known him. This leads me to think Scar choose Kovu while he was still in the womb (after looking at Nuka, can you blame him?).[/quote]

I disagree your statement because there's no way Scar could tell Zira was carrying a male cub in order to name him as the next King. So, Kovu had to be born for Scar to judge whether he was healthy enough to take his place. So, I'm assuming Kovu was a few days old by the time Simba returned from his self-exile.

[quote="Noahcs"]Now you can argue that Kovu wasn't Scar's son due to it being mentioned numerous times, but the movie never says that Kovu wasn't Zira's son; his father could have been a rogue lion. Perhaps she was giving birth in the middle of the final fight scene? When she returned, she would have found her mate dead and then be forced to leave Pride Rock, thus forming a massive grudge against the Lion King.?[/quote]

It was said that Zira is Kovu's mother. When Zira confronts Simba during the beginning of the movie, she asks Simba, "Have you met my son, Kovu? He was hand chosen by Scar to follow in his pawprints, and become the king!" Also, when Zira takes Kovu back to the Outlands, Kovu apologizes to her saying, "I'm sorry, Mother. She [Kiara] didn't seem so bad...."

[Miharuka]

I think they just simply weren't there at all. -w-''
But yeah if you put the movies together they must have been there somehow..
But also, even if Zira wasn't there at that moment then at least some outlander lionesses must have been there during the final battle..
I'm just going to say they weren't there at all in the first movie..
Sounds stupid, but ohwell. That's how it is I guess.

[jelle]

hmm it was dark in that scene so the colors were kinda hard to see correctly there.
or well atleast the scenes where you could see the lionesses
also it is pretty clear that the makers of TLK1 didn't think that there would be a sequal so that is why some things in TLK2 are there and not in TLK1
or just a little mixed up(like the cub at the end of TLK1)

[KopsTheTerminator]

They were at Starbucks.

I assume they were away during the battle of Pride Rock, possibly in a vain search for food. Since the directors of TLK didn't intend to have a sequel to the original, the movie has nothing to do with the Outsiders at all. It's sadly a plot hole in SP which can only be covered by theories and assumptions.

[KentuckyWildcat]

First of all. I'm sorry if I initially put this in the wrong section. Since my question was about SP characters related to events in the first movie, I wasn't quite sure how to classify it.

As for theories on this, I really like Noah's idea that the Outsiders other than Zira were rogues recruited over time. That would mean that only Zira really has to be accounted for. As for her, I believe Kovu had to have been born for Scar to have chosen him as an heir, so she couldn't strictly have been giving birth. However, since Vitani seems to be about the same age as Kovu, perhaps they were twins and Zira was somewhere safe recovering from giving birth and caring for the young cubs. At some later point she would return to Pride Rock only to discover what happened. That's my best guess anyway, becuase honestly it's hard to come up with a theory for this that seems 100% logical.

[StarlightLioness]

I believe that a few of the Outlanders started off as Pridelanders. OR Scar took in a band of roving females that had lost their male for reasons unknown. Perhaps a bit of both. Zira HAD to have been around during Scar's reign. And if she was part of a roving band that Scar took in, that would explain some of her unerring devotion to him. He would have been their savior for sure.

Now, where were they during the final battle for Pride Rock? Well, there is a chance that Zira and her followers were off hunting in vain. Yes, Sarabi was in charge of the hunting parties, but if Zira was Scar's queen, she could do whatever she wanted. In any case, they simply weren't at the battle. This would also explain why they thought of Simba as the bad guy. Perhaps Zira and the Outlanders fled to protect their cubs when Simba returned and the battle broke out.

As for Kovu and Vitani, I believe that they were littermates. They seem to be the same age. I believe that they were sired by a rogue lion who happened to resemble Scar, but was a much healthier male. I do believe that Nuka was Scar's offspring. Nuka complains that he is the one who should have been chosen as the next king, and that Scar wasn't even Kovu's father. I would venture a guess that Kovu and Vitani were born before Scar's death. Scar had to have seen Kovu in order to determine that he was healthy/acceptable enough to be chosen as his heir.

[FlipMode]

[quote="KopsTheTerminator"]They were at Starbucks.
[/quote]

/Thread

[quote="Azerane"]It's possible that Zira was there at the end but wasn't quite as strongly devoted to Scar at that point, but it was instead his death which triggered a strong response of wanting revenge for someone she looked up to. And it was from that point on that she started becoming a problem at which point Simba banished her.[/quote]

All honesty, this makes the most sense to me too.