How many cubs does Simba have?

[TheLionPrince]

[quote="Noahcs"]
Anyway, I think the list that Lion Prince provided is a pretty good representation. However, I'm confused to how Kopa is unofficial. It is true that is contradictory to SP, but saying he is unofficial gives the impression that Alex Simmons requested to make him and Disney granted his request. I don't think that is how it happened. Disney Publishing policies back in the early 1990s would have been the exact opposite. In fact Grolier Publishing (who published the Six New Adventures) acquired Disney Publishing's assets back in the summer of 1994 in a huge agreement. Source: Hartford Courant. August 1, 1994[/quote]

Thanks for complients. I feel Kopa is "non-official" because his creator, Alex Simmons, isn't entirely affiliated with the Walt Disney Company, as addressed on his personal website. This greatly differs from Kiara, who was being created under the direction of Darrell Rooney. A source reference on the Wikipedia page claims he began work with Disney in 1978.

While both Six New Adventures and Simba's Pride received the same Disney logo on them, one was created by Disney filmmakers who went on to produce other Disney-related projects (i.e. TLK II producer Jeanine Roussel who later served as producer for Tinker Bell and Lady and the Tramp II because she works for Disney) while another had involvement in a Disney product, and went about his own career as a children's performer. Not to mention, Kopa was completely unknown to the TLKII filmmakers, and was never included into their official vision. Therefore, Kopa is non-official to me.

[quote="Noahcs"][quote="TheLionPrince"]Chaka (working name for Kiara according to this magazine article; supposed son of Simba and Nala for TLKII)[/quote]
I don't know if you've seen the email I uncovered by Tad Stones, but it's a second source to confirm Chaka was indeed a working name.[/quote]

Yes, I saw it before when you posted it on the Chaka forum, but I'm skeptical about believing it. The email from Tad Stones stated Allers and Minkoff made comments on Chaka, but Roger Allers and Rob Minkoff had no involvement in the production of Simba's Pride. From my memory, Allers was working on his second film, Kingdom of the Sun, and Minkoff left Disney to start his own career by the time Disney was producing TLKII.

Plus, The Unofficial Lion King Encyclopedia even stated the name, Chaka, could be a name for a female character, which ties in with the magaine article that stated it was a working name for Kiara (a female). Lastly, if there was a Chaka character, then, some concept sketches of him would have surfaced to indicate he was being thought up, and none has appeared so far.

[quote="Kina"]Ah, I think I should've clarified why I put Fluffy in the "Theories" category. He's in there mainly because Fluffy is made into fanon characters from what I've seen, as provided by your own list. But you did compile a pretty good one.[/quote]

Oh, thanks for clearing that up!

[Noah]

Thanks for actually responding to me. I love discussing things like this, but lately it seems no one is interesting in Lion King related stuff.
[quote="TheLionPrince"]Thanks for complients. I feel Kopa is "non-official" because his creator, Alex Simmons, isn't entirely affiliated with the Walt Disney Company, as addressed on his personal website. This greatly differs from Kiara, who was being created under the direction of Darrell Rooney. A source reference on the Wikipedia page claims he began work with Disney in 1978.[/quote]
That is true that Alex Simmons isn't afflicated with Disney, but he was at one point. He wrote three different movie novelizations for them, with the other two being Aladdin and Pocahontas. I'm wondering how long he would have needed to stay with them in order to be considered part of the company. Or are you simply saying that since Darrell Rooney spent more time with Disney, his creation would be slightly more official?

[quote="TheLionPrince"]While both Six New Adventures and Simba's Pride received the same Disney logo on them, one was created by Disney filmmakers who went on to produce other Disney-related projects (i.e. TLK II producer Jeanine Roussel who later served as producer for Tinker Bell and Lady and the Tramp II because she works for Disney) while another had involvement in a Disney product, and went about his own career as a children's performer. Not to mention, Kopa was completely unknown to the TLKII filmmakers, and was never included into their official vision. Therefore, Kopa is non-official to me.[/quote]
All valid points, but keep in mind that Jeanine Roussel hasn't worked exclusively for Disney. Her IMDB credits in the link you provided show her involvement in several Warner Brothers projects. I will give in and say that her website does back up your argument that she is Disney, even though she currently doesn't work with them.

[quote="TheLionPrince"]
Yes, I saw it before when you posted it on the Chaka forum, but I'm skeptical about believing it. The email from Tad Stones stated Allers and Minkoff made comments on Chaka, but Roger Allers and Rob Minkoff had no involvement in the production of Simba's Pride. From my memory, Allers was working on his second film, Kingdom of the Sun, and Minkoff left Disney to start his own career by the time Disney was producing TLKII.[/quote]
It seems to me that starting out, the TLKII team would have needed some guidance in some specific areas. The things that Lion King fans take for granted today, weren’t known back then. Stuff such as using Swahili words for names and the features of Pride Rock are just two quick examples. I’m thinking that the Minkoff and Allers would have had at least a few meetings with Darrell Rooney to hash out the storyline (remember it took only two days to do it for the first one). Also keep in mind that this production was Rooney’s first time in the director’s chair. He would have needed some guidance.

As for the timelines not matching up, I couldn’t find anything about Minkoff leaving Disney. In fact a Google News Archives search for “rob minkoff” between the dates of 01/01/95 and 12/31/98 turned up only six results, so I’m assuming he wasn’t too busy. Plus he returned to direct Haunted Mansion, so he obviously left on good terms. Allers was still working on Kingdom of the Sun in the summer of 1998. And there is Janurary 1995 Orlando Sentinel article that says Simba's Pride was going to be released “in the next 12 months”. This means that significant production would have already occurred by then. The email I posted is dated from January 1996 and it refers to Chaka having already been removing, fitting in with the theory that these meetings took place in the winter of 94/95.

[quote="TheLionPrince"]
Plus, The Unofficial Lion King Encyclopedia even stated the name, Chaka, could be a name for a female character, which ties in with the magaine article that stated it was a working name for Kiara (a female). Lastly, if there was a Chaka character, then, some concept sketches of him would have surfaced to indicate he was being thought up, and none has appeared so far.[/quote]
I'm thinking they may have phrased it like that in order to keep it simplier. It would have been much easier to say "Chaka was Kiara's original name" than to say "Chaka was the name of the brother that Kiara originally had". A whole can of worms would have been opened and thus would have had to have been discussed in the magazine. I'm not even sure if a children's magazine or "Unoffical Encyclopedia" is the best source, especially for a small detail such as whether Chaka was Kiara's original name or another character's original name. But then again, an email posted an online chatroom isn't exactly bulletproof

I disagree on the sketches. They may never have been made. Storyboarding and sketches come after the storyline has been hashed out. Besides, apparently 20 exist of Binti, but only one has surfaced of her. In fact, the only sources of storyboard (to my knowledge) come from the Proud of Simba’s Pride featurette on the DVD. If it was missing from that video, I'm fairly certain the fandom hasn't seen it. As much I would love to have an Art of the Lion King II book, I don’t think Disney will make one. Thus, any art that was made will probably be stored in a Disney vault for all eternity.

[TheLionPrince]

[quote="Noahcs"][quote="TheLionPrince"]
Yes, I saw it before when you posted it on the Chaka forum, but I'm skeptical about believing it. The email from Tad Stones stated Allers and Minkoff made comments on Chaka, but Roger Allers and Rob Minkoff had no involvement in the production of Simba's Pride. From my memory, Allers was working on his second film, Kingdom of the Sun, and Minkoff left Disney to start his own career by the time Disney was producing TLKII.[/quote]
It seems to me that starting out, the TLKII team would have needed some guidance in some specific areas. The things that Lion King fans take for granted today, weren’t known back then. Stuff such as using Swahili words for names and the features of Pride Rock are just two quick examples. I’m thinking that the Minkoff and Allers would have had at least a few meetings with Darrell Rooney to hash out the storyline (remember it took only two days to do it for the first one). Also keep in mind that this production was Rooney’s first time in the director’s chair. He would have needed some guidance.

As for the timelines not matching up, I couldn’t find anything about Minkoff leaving Disney. In fact a Google News Archives search for “rob minkoff” between the dates of 01/01/95 and 12/31/98 turned up only six results, so I’m assuming he wasn’t too busy. Plus he returned to direct Haunted Mansion, so he obviously left on good terms. Allers was still working on Kingdom of the Sun in the summer of 1998. And there is Janurary 1995 Orlando Sentinel article that says Simba's Pride was going to be released “in the next 12 months”. This means that significant production would have already occurred by then. The email I posted is dated from January 1996 and it refers to Chaka having already been removing, fitting in with the theory that these meetings took place in the winter of 94/95.[/quote]

Well, Noah, your research knows no bounds. However, I still remain skeptical about Allers and Minkoff having minimal involvement during pre-production of TLKII. I'll have to get in contact with Darrell Rooney, who is on Facebook, about these supposed meetings.

[quote="Noahcs"][quote="TheLionPrince"]
Plus, The Unofficial Lion King Encyclopedia even stated the name, Chaka, could be a name for a female character, which ties in with the magaine article that stated it was a working name for Kiara (a female). Lastly, if there was a Chaka character, then, some concept sketches of him would have surfaced to indicate he was being thought up, and none has appeared so far.[/quote]
I'm thinking they may have phrased it like that in order to keep it simplier. It would have been much easier to say "Chaka was Kiara's original name" than to say "Chaka was the name of the brother that Kiara originally had". A whole can of worms would have been opened and thus would have had to have been discussed in the magazine. I'm not even sure if a children's magazine or "Unoffical Encyclopedia" is the best source, especially for a small detail such as whether Chaka was Kiara's original name or another character's original name. But then again, an email posted an online chatroom isn't exactly bulletproof

I disagree on the sketches. They may never have been made. Storyboarding and sketches come after the storyline has been hashed out. Besides, apparently 20 exist of Binti, but only one has surfaced of her. In fact, the only sources of storyboard (to my knowledge) come from the Proud of Simba’s Pride featurette on the DVD. If it was missing from that video, I'm fairly certain the fandom hasn't seen it. As much I would love to have an Art of the Lion King II book, I don’t think Disney will make one. Thus, any art that was made will probably be stored in a Disney vault for all eternity. [/quote]

You're most likely right about the existence of Chaka concepts. Also, thanks for finding Ms. Jeannine Roussell-Hodden's personal website. I emailed her yesterday asking her to confirm the exact existence of Chaka; I should get a response within a week.

[MuddyMufasa]

I believe that he only has one canon cub - Kiara.

Most of the other theories for his cubs, in my opinion, don't seem that realistic. The closest is Kopa, but it simply does not make sense that there would be no mention of him whatsoever in The Lion King 2: Simba's Pride.

Also, it was confirmed that Six New Adventures was not created or affiliated with Disney. Disney did not create Kopa. Kopa was simply a fan theory made up directly following The Lion King's release.

[Noah]

[quote="TheLionPrince"]
Well, Noah, your research knows no bounds. However, I still remain skeptical about Allers and Minkoff having minimal involvement during pre-production of TLKII. I'll have to get in contact with Darrell Rooney, who is on Facebook, about these supposed meetings.[/quote]
I appreciate the complient and would also love to see any information you turn up when you get in touch with Mr. Rooney

[quote="Noahcs"]You're most likely right about the existence of Chaka concepts. Also, thanks for finding Ms. Jeannine Roussell-Hodden's personal website. I emailed her yesterday asking her to confirm the exact existence of Chaka; I should get a response within a week.[/quote]
It's nice to know that I'm not the only fan to send emails to various Lion King-related people. I sent an email to Alex Simmons before the holidays and he responded that he would love to answer my questions, but needed some time to do so. Needless to say, I'll share whatever he gives me with the rest of the fandom.

[KentuckyWildcat]

I'll add my promised thoughts about Kopa here instead of starting a new thread. Basically, Disney has created two spin-offs for TLK that contradict each other completely. Neither plot was created by the original film-makers, so we're basically it's down to personal preference which vision we accept.

From all indications, Six New Adventures was an officially licensed Disney collection, so it can't be written off completely. The problem arose with the release of SP which completely contradicted the "existence" of Kopa. In fact, it was confirmed in this thread:http://www.mylionking.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=20566 that the SP storyboard directors were not even aware of Kopa as a character.

As creative as the fan theories are that attempt to allow for the "existence" of both Kopa and Kiara, none of them quite add up enough for me to support them, mainly for two reasons.

1. While Simba's over-protective nature in parenting Kiara is cited as evidence that some tragedy befell Kopa, Nala doesn't exhibit the same behavior. In fact, she encourages Simba to lighten up with Kiara, and later to accept Kovu. Since Nala is the only potential mother for any of Simba's cubs and she certainly seems caring enough that she wouldn't be unaffected by losing a cub, this is a major blow to the theory.

2. It is stated in SP that Kovu was the last cub born during Scar's reign. He seems roughly the same age as Kiara. If Kopa had been born first and then died somehow, the age difference between Kiara and Kovu would be much more noticeable.

So to answer the original question in the thread, I think that Simba only has one cub, but whether it is Kopa or Kiara is somewhat up to you.