Feminism

[Tora]

[quote="Nilla"]4.6 percent of Fortune 500 CEO roles.[/quote]
That's men's fault? Couldn't be that women don't generally want those roles right? I mean you want to be a CEO of a fortune 500 company right? I hope so based on this conversation. Also why are we being so narrow viewed? Why only look at fortune 500 companies?

When you can produce evidence to back up your claims maybe I'd be a little more obliged to accept some of your grievances. And no you didn't directly call me a anti-feminist you strongly implied it based on the fact that I disagreed with you.

Women aren't oppressed is what I said. Women choose to get lower jobs. Women choose not to run for president. Women choose to have children. Women choose to make mistakes. Men do all the same things. Has nothing to do with them being a woman or a man.

And I stand by what I said. Rape culture is a myth. No one is teaching men to rape. The idea of that is nonsense. At the same time they don't need someone to teach them that rape is wrong. THEY KNOW IT IS WRONG. When they choose to rape they do it knowingly.

And don't take it as I am attacking you personally. I am just trying to prove my point.

[Nilla]

I don't want to talk to you. I want to talk to the other people who have responded to this thread that have given intelligent responses that sometimes don't line up with what I think 100% but are still worth talking about. Maybe I could have learned something, maybe they could've. I don't hate you, but you are making ignorant statements that are not worth engaging (unless I thought you might change you're mind but LOL no way)

[Carl]

[quote]Women choose to get lower jobs. Women choose not to run for president. Women choose to have children. Women choose to make mistakes. Men do all the same things. Has nothing to do with them being a woman or a man.[/quote]

I'm sorry but that's just false. Many pregnancies are the result of contraception failing, in those cases it is not the woman's choice. When a woman does get pregnant (barring abortion which is a whole nother debate) she has no choice about whether or not to work or go to school, at some point she has to stop because of the baby. A man can choose to leave her, or to continue advancing his career all throughout the pregnancy and maternity leave. Additionally, employers often hire women and men for specific roles. Even qualified women often get relegated to lower positions if a man with equal qualifications also applies. Women do sometimes run for president and as yet none have been elected (not that being female means they ought to get the position). Most women who work want higher jobs like men do. When they do get such roles, they usually get less pay for them. Furthermore, saying that they choose low jobs is incredibly ignorant of you. Nobody wants a low position. And no one "chooses" to make mistakes, they happen, but no one sets out with the intent of making a mistake.

Yes women are much better off than they once were and much better off than in third world countries, but they are not yet equal to men. Saying they choose not to have the same things is awful similar to people in the past claiming African Americans chose to be slaves. "They like being lesser than us!" Uh-huh.

[S1mb4 D4 L10n]

This is a fine debate right now. Everyone has been respectful. Let's refrain from pejoratives and continue the discussion.

[Squeely]

[quote="Tora"]Also it's not rape because some dumbo sent a picture of his thing to some model. It's gross and disgusting, but it certainly isn't rape. No one gets to change the definition of rape because they don't like something. Yes crap like that needs to stop, but that is not rape.[/quote]
It's an unwanted sexual advance being forcibly thrust upon women. Imo rape culture doesn't just mean the act itself, but a culture in which things like this, things that unwantedly turn women into sex objects, are seen as commonplace and not much is done about it. Things like catcalling too, completely disrespecting and objectifying women rather than treating them as people. And I've had it happen to me multiple times starting from when I was a teenager, so I can't even imagine what women in less-safe neighborhoods go through.

Think of it like this: most of the people around you are 300-pound, 6-feet-or-taller bodybuilders. They're scary to you, because their physical prowess means they could easily greatly harm you if you reject their advances. And they make advances all the time, saying demeaning things like "hey baby" and much worse. And that's what a lot of women face on a daily basis: Men who are physically intimidating making threatening remarks.

Another thing to consider is that when women use dating apps, oftentimes the first thing they read from some stranger is "suck my d***". And should that woman tell that man no, he responds by degrading and/or insulting her, calling her things like "sl*t", "wh**e", "b**ch", "ugly", etc. That's an incredibly rapey attitude to have, and it happens all the time. There's even an entire Instagram account dedicated to the subject (though obvious language and subject matter warning), heck the woman who runs it often gets insulted just for saying that she's a feminist on her profile: https://www.instagram.com/feminist_tinder/

And honestly, I find it a little problematic that if I don't acknowledge that not all men are like this, I'll probably get a response reminding me of such Not once did I accuse all men of acting like this, nor did I imply that all men are bad. Even I, a woman who has been abused by two of the men I've dated, one of whom tried to take away all my power and freedom, who thought his way was the law and became threatening and argumentative when I didn't conform to outdated gender roles, the other of whom actually raped me repeatedly and tried to indirectly kill me, even I disagree with hating all men and labeling them as bad. But when some men literally think sending a picture of their junk to women is funny, when so many are harassing women in these ways, something is seriously, seriously wrong with that and it needs to change.

[Tora]

Alright Julie I'll give you that one. Perhaps wording in my statement was wrong. My point is that while yes pregnancies do happen, and yes sometimes the women have to take off does that mean they should be given special treatment because of it? If so then wouldn't it be just as fair to give men paternity leave? Why should it be okay to take months off and then expect to come back and find a promotion waiting? Does that make sense?

Squeely I'm trying to keep this less personal, and more general populous. Anyway I understand where you are coming from. I understand that there are a lot of guys who do those things. Yet that doesn't mean that there is a culture of it. Yes things like that are wrong, and yes there should be things to prevent such advances, but that doesn't make it rape. Perhaps we need to find a better way of addressing those types of problems such as cat calling or treating women like sex objects. Actually calling that rape culture, and tying the word rape to it doesn't make much sense. It devalues the actual rape victims.

[Nilla]

You said exactly what I didn't have the words to, Killjoy Dixon! That reminds me of a study I saw where scientists sent out identical applications to jobs, just with different names, and the boy sounding names got hired far more often. Black sounding names took a backseat too.

And squeely, I like the way you explained some of the ways rape culture impacts girls. I'm so sorry for what you've been through, I really respect that you're standing up for what you believe in, but haven't lost all faith in men either.
Another thing that I've noticed with rape culture, is that women are consenting to sex they don't really want to have. It's not rape, the men would have stopped if she asked, but she doesn't want to do it. They consent because they think it's what they're supposed to do, that the sexual satisfaction of men is more important than the woman not really wanting to do it. The have internalized the idea that women exist to serve men and they're letting themselves be harmed because of it.
I've seen women talking about that exact experience. It isn't something I've experienced personally, so my description of it is probably not the best. Though I, too have been harmed by the unconscious "women exist to serve men" mindset. I think most women have to some extent

[Carl]

[quote="Tora"]Alright Julie I'll give you that one. Perhaps wording in my statement was wrong. My point is that while yes pregnancies do happen, and yes sometimes the women have to take off does that mean they should be given special treatment because of it? If so then wouldn't it be just as fair to give men paternity leave? Why should it be okay to take months off and then expect to come back and find a promotion waiting? Does that make sense?[/quote]
You entirely missed my point. Women cannot work when they have just had a baby. They don't choose to take that time off, and an ideal situation for that would be like they do in (I believe it is Sweden, but may be Norway) where both parents are provided 1.5 years of maternity leave total to split between the two of them as they see fit. That is not the way here though. Here women have to take off and men don't. They shouldn't have a promotion waiting on them when they come back, but they are not given the chance to acquire the higher positions that men do without working harder and playing less. Women should be allowed to focus on their careers without being given ugly labels.

Also, believe it or not, we covered in my class about motivation and work attitudes last semester that in the US it is still not that uncommon for male higher ups to withhold promotions to women who refuse to give them sexual favors. If you don't believe me, I'll look up the source tomorrow for you.

[quote]Squeely I'm trying to keep this less personal, and more general populous. Anyway I understand where you are coming from. I understand that there are a lot of guys who do those things. Yet that doesn't mean that there is a culture of it.[/quote]
Actually, that's precisely what constitutes a culture is a lot of people who hold similar beliefs and behave in similar ways.

[S1mb4 D4 L10n]

One question I'd like to pose simply from an economics perspetive. If women were paid less for the same job, why would employers not exclusively employ women? Wouldn't greedy corporations be ready to "outsource" jobs to women? Or... maybe there are factors regarding pay that are more complex than just "sexism".

The Equal Pay Act of 1863 states:No employer having employees subject to any provisions of this section [section 206 of title 29 of the United States Code] shall discriminate, within any establishment in which such employees are employed, between employees on the basis of sex by paying wages to employees in such establishment at a rate less than the rate at which he pays wages to employees of the opposite sex in such establishment for equal work on jobs[,] the performance of which requires equal skill, effort, and responsibility, and which are performed under similar working conditions.

If you legitimately feel that your job situation falls under those guidelines, go ahead and take it to court.

I encourage those interested to research the gender pay gap and try not to recycle flawed talking points.

[Carl]

^ If that is directed at me, please note that I said "usually," and did not specify that lesser pay is based entirely on sexism; as for the statement itself, it's based on figures I have seen, though not recently, and if that has changed I will gladly retract that statement if provided evidence.