Father mistakes son for burglar and kills him with gun

[FlipMode]

If tomorrow, 1000 Americans die in some freak shooting spree... Guns will still not be banned in the country and frankly the laws will remain unchanged.
Its part of the culture, nuff said.

In this particular case, his ass is going to jail anyway so all is well in the "Land of the free". Of course we could debate that it its not, but we could debate in whether guerilla PMCs made out of slave children are allowed in third world countries... The fact it, the government (or lack of) allows for things like that in that country, and it is part of the natural order there. I mean, this whole thread seems to be a dig at the American gun laws... When one kid dies? Much worse has happened and the laws remained unscathed... I doubt any difference will come of this and if I was American I would see no reason either to be honest.

Guess I am just quite neutral on the matter
I will say this though...

[quote]Alright, but we can agree that guns are built to kill, right?[/quote]

Yeah. But the gun itself was not the only part of the crime, the fool of a father was the one to pull the trigger. Even with a gun, you still only have half of the things needed to commit murder, you still need a criminal / stupid person to pull the trigger. So really I do not think guns can be blamed for this... Did the gun fire itself? No, the man decided someone life was apparently worth taking over his sisters house being broken into. Could have shot him somewhere it may not have killed him, foot or leg for example.
Guns don't kill people, murderers do.

EDIT - in another matter

[quote]An autopsy is being conducted to determine the manner and cause of death. [/quote]
Well, he was shot... I think it is safe to assume he was killed by the bullet... CRAZY THEORY I KNOW!

[Woeler]

[quote="FlipMode"]
Its part of the culture, nuff said.[/quote]
So? These gun laws create w whole society based on fear. People don't buy a gun for fun or amusement. They are afraid! They fear everyone else (because they have guns too, obviously). It's a vicious circle.

Some people say when you ban guns only the criminals will have guns and crime rates will rocket. Biggest BS ever. Look at other countries were guns are in fact banned. Germany, Belgium, The UK, The Netherlands, Germany. Gun murders in the US outnumber those by 3000% (literally).

In the US an average of 25.7 people a day die because of gunfire. I admit, we in Europe have the occasional person that snaps and kills a bunch of people, and yes those people got a gun via illegal markets. The time and effort you have to put in getting a gun is way too much for most of the people. Germany is the only country that has an average of 1 gun murder per day, the rest of the developed countries are less than 1 murder a day. That is nothing compared to 25.7.

You hear American people on TV saying that Islam is violent culture. Realize how biased that really is... I'm not saying they are equivalent. I'm saying the principle is the same. A peaceful society with guns does not exist.

Anyone who says guns are a good thing has obviously not seen what kind of damage they can do to innocent people.

[FlipMode]

[quote="Woeler1"]

Anyone who says guns are a good thing has obviously not seen what kind of damage they can do to innocent people.[/quote]


I am definitely not saying they are a good thing, by any means. I am just saying that it takes two to tango - if one is shot, the gun did not fire itself at the person, someone aimed it, with intent to shoot another person. I mean guns do have their uses I.E military, hunting and such... If guns did not exist we would never have had the American Revolution, Bin Laden would still be alive and such.
I suppose though if guns were not legalised in the first place then people would not have that mentality, but even then you only mentioned gun crimes - we still have murders here via other weapons / actions to take into consideration.

Do I think guns should be banned there like they are in the EU? Absolutely. I just also see reasons why Americans would defend their right to own a gun.

[DGFone]

[quote="Woeler1"]
Anyone who says guns are a good thing has obviously not seen what kind of damage they can do to innocent people.[/quote]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/kendra-st-clai ... ISWleClhxo

'nuff said.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Any notion that access to guns increases violence just isn't supported by any data. If anything, there is limited evidence that increased gun ownership among law-abiding citizens deters violent crime.

This interesting study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy contains the statistics and analysis that I'm referring to. It's a bit lengthy, but worth reading.

[Azdgari]

^ First of all, while I love that you cited a source, nobody is going to read a fifty page Harvard dissertation. It might be in your best interests to use a more concise source. ;3

Secondly, have a look at the world. What do the UK, Switzerland, Singapore, Japan, New Zealand, and the UK all have in common? Strict regulation and control of firearms, and extremely low levels of gun violence. How's the US doing?

[quote]The United States has the highest rate of gun related injuries (not deaths per capita) among developed countries. ...they also have the highest rate of gun ownership and highest rate of officers.[/quote]

Soooo.... yeaahhh....

[Woeler]

Yesterday (again) three people died and a dozen got injured due to this regulation. Not sure if it happens more often or just more often in the news. In both cases, it's still bad

[DGFone]

Not to mention that once again: you ban the guns, the criminals will still get the guns. Problem: If they have to resort to the black market, they are going to get the biggest bang for their buck (and I mean bang). Translation: The stricter the gun laws, the bigger the guns that are used in crime.

Dat logic.

http://www.examiner.com/article/those-p ... -you-think
http://www.tuccille.com/blog/2008/01/le ... reece.html

[Woeler]

[quote="DGFone"]Not to mention that once again: you ban the guns, the criminals will still get the guns. Problem: If they have to resort to the black market, they are going to get the biggest bang for their buck (and I mean bang). Translation: The stricter the gun laws, the bigger the guns that are used in crime.

Dat logic.

http://www.examiner.com/article/those-p ... -you-think
http://www.tuccille.com/blog/2008/01/le ... reece.html[/quote]

So, I've read those articles. And yet we have a lower (far lower) percentage of gun murder. Saying ''oh well, some people are gonna get them anyway, might as well make them legal'' is preposterous and highly irresponsible. Some people will get drugs anyway, why not make them legal too? They harm people? Oh, I thought guns did that too...

That is the biggest bullshit argument and you know it. It's bullsh*t, it's fantasy and it is a lie. Take a look at all the other developed countries with firearm restrictions and you see that they do better. Less deaths less injured. We have the occasional person that snaps, but that happens less than once per year. In the US people die every single day because of this dogmatism. For shame. Instead of ignoring it someone should stand up and admit that people getting shot is wrong. Nationalistic historical dogma, that's what it is. And what's worse: People are proud of it, they are proud to own a murdermachine. Now, I say this is evil.

The only thing this law has done is poison a society with fear and violence. Seriously, how many more people have to die for this dogma? Only in America can gun ownership be a right and healthcare be a privilege. The average lays around roughly 10.000 people a year in the United states. That is more than 1 person EVERY HOUR. Imagine it, gather 10.000 people in a hall and kill one of them every hour. For God's sake those people might have kids, a wife or a husband.

It has created a country of violence, a country of fear and a country that morally justifies the killing of others. And I don't care if that someone enters you house at night to steal your money, that doesn't give you the right to kill them. Because this asocial political system is the thing that forces people into crime anyways.

This ladies and gentlemen, is how the American government solves the problem. Instead of supplying healthcare, jobs and education to the ones that are poor and forced into a criminal society, they just supply the richer, luckier ones with guns to kill them. This is disgraceful, it is inhuman, it is obscene and it comes from a clutch of people who are not willing to grow with modern society, who are not willing to support one another and who are not willing to create a stable, well faring and social society.

This law is responsible for death, suffering and misery of millions and the government should apologize for it, they should show some shame!

Innocents die because of this law

Spoiler: show

April 1999 - two teenage schoolboys shot and killed 12 schoolmates and a teacher at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado, before killing themselves.

July 1999 - a stock exchange trader in Atlanta, Georgia, killed 12 people including his wife and two children before taking his own life.

September 1999 - a gunman opened fire at a prayer service in Fort Worth, Texas, killing six people before committing suicide.

October 2002 - a series of sniper-style shootings occurred in Washington DC, leaving 10 dead.

August 2003 - in Chicago, a laid-off worker shot and killed six of his former workmates.

November 2004 - in Birchwood, Wisconsin, a hunter killed six other hunters and wounded two others after an argument with them.

March 2005 - a man opened fire at a church service in Brookfield, Wisconsin, killing seven people.

October 2006 - a truck driver killed five schoolgirls and seriously wounded six others in a school in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania before taking his own life.

April 2007 - student Seung-Hui Cho shot and killed 32 people and wounded 15 others at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia, before shooting himself, making it the deadliest mass shooting in the United States after 2000.

August 2007 - Three Delaware State University students were shot and killed in “execution style” by a 28-year-old and two 15-year-old boys. A fourth student was shot and stabbed.

September 2007 - A freshman student at Delaware State University shot and wounded two other students at a campus dining hall.

December 2007 - a 20-year-old man killed nine people and injured five others in a shopping center in Omaha, Nebraska.

December 2007 - a woman and her boyfriend shot dead six members of her family on Christmas Eve in Carnation, Washington.

February 2008 - a shooter who is still at large tied up and shot six women at a suburban clothing store in Chicago, leaving five of them dead and the remaining one injured.

February 2008 - a man opened fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, Illinois, killing five students and wounding 16 others before laying down his weapon and surrendering.

July 2008 – A former student shot three people in a computer lab at South Mountain Community College, Phoenix, Arizona.

September 2008 - a mentally ill man who was released from jail one month earlier shot eight people in Alger, Washington, leaving six of them dead and the rest two wounded.

October 2008 - Several men in a car drove up to a dormitory at the University of Central Arkansas and opened fire, killing two students and injuring a third person.

December 2008 - a man dressed in a Santa Claus suit opened fire at a family Christmas party in Covina, California, then set fire on the house and killed himself. Police later found nine people dead in the debris of the house.

March 2009 - a 28-year-old laid-off worker opened fire while driving a car through several towns in Alabama, killing 10 people.

March 2009 - a heavily-armed gunman shot dead eight people, many of them elderly and sick people, in a private-owned nursing home in North Carolina.

March 2009 - six people were shot dead in a high-grade apartment building in Santa Clara, California.

April 2009 – An 18-year-old former student followed a pizza deliveryman into his old dormitory, and shot the deliveryman, a dorm monitor, and himself at Hampton University, Virginia.

April 2009 - a man shot dead 13 people at a civic center in Binghamton, New York.

July 2009 - Six people, including one student, were shot in a drive-by shooting at a community rally on the campus of Texas Southern University, Houston.

November 2009 - U.S. army psychologist Major Nidal Hasan opened fire at a military base in Fort Hood, Texas, leaving 13 dead and 42 others wounded.

February 2010 – A professor opened fire 50 minutes into at a Biological Sciences Department faculty meeting at the University of Alabama, killing three colleagues and wounding three others

January 2011 - a gunman opened fire at a public gathering outside a grocery in Tuscon, Arizona, killing six people including a nine-year-old girl and wounding at least 12 others. Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was severely injured with a gunshot to the head.

July 2012 - Masked gunman opens fire at midnight cinema screen of new Batman film The Dark Knight Rises, killing 12 and injuring 58. Suspect James Holmes is arrested by police and awaiting trial.

August 2012 - Gunman kills six people at SIkh temple in Wisconsin before being shot dead by police. Suspect is named as white supremacists Wade Michael Page.

October 2012 - A man opens fire at the store of his wife in Brookfield Wisconsin. Killing three plus himself and injuring another four.

Spoiler: show

With a gun being the weapon of choice in so many of the homicides in the United States, consider other countries, with stricter gun control laws, and how murders involving firearms there are much lower.

Japan - In Japan, most kinds of guns are illegal, and almost no one owns a gun. Japan is known as one of the strictest gun controlling nation in the world, with only 0.6 firearms per every 100 people. In 2006, there were only two homicides caused by guns in Japan. In 2008 there were 11. The country has nearly eliminated murder by firearms.

United Kingdom – The rate of private gun ownership in the United Kingdom is 6.72 firearms per 100 people. In 2009, only 18 people were murdered with a firearm. Within the last 14 years, the year with the highest number of gun caused homicides was 2004, with 52 people killed.

Australia – Ranked at No. 25 in comparison of number of privately owned guns in 178 other countries, about 15 out of every 100 Australians owns a firearm. Annual homicide rates involving firearms in the country is relatively low, at 0.1% per every 10,000 in 2009.

Germany – Ranked No. 4, in a comparison of the number of privately owned guns in 178 other countries, approx. 30 out of every 100 people in Germany own a firearm. Germany experiences far fewer gun related homicides annually than the United States. In 2010, there was a total of 158 homicides committed with a firearm.

United States – The United States is ranked at No. 1 for civilian gun ownership in comparison with all other industrialized countries. There are approximately 88.8 firearms for every 100 people in the U.S. In the past 14 years, the year with the greatest number of homicides caused by a firearm occurred in 2006, when 10,225 people were killed by the use of a gun. Annual firearm suicides within the United States are high as well. In 2005, 17,002 suicides were committed using a firearm.

The United States far surpasses other countries in terms of gun related violence and death. The numbers above tend to indicate that fewer gun-related homicides is a direct result of stricter gun control laws.

A particular quote by Benjamin Franklin says, “Anyone who will trade freedom for security deserves neither.”
Source

And of course a study which shows gun control and deaths by firearms are strictly related indeed

I say it to everyones face: Ignoring it is enabling it.

And I know that there are people who will say ''well those things will happen anyway'' or ''Some have to die for the greater good''. What a disgusting thing to say. Every human life has value. Imagine how angry the parents of the kids in Columbine highschool must have been, because it could have been prevented if it hadn't been that easy for those shooters to access a gun. The worst image in this world is a mother or a father having to bury their own child. A government, and by extension a people should do everything to minimize the risk of such things happening. That's why they happen so much over there and so little over here or in any other developed country.

[KentuckyWildcat]

Again Woeler, your emotional and politically charged argument isn't supported by the statistics, and I really recommend you read this study

If it's too long, allow me to give some highlights.

1. Singling out the number of crimes involving guns is not an accurate measure of how violent a society is. In many cases, countries with tight gun laws or even outright bans have a higher rate of violent crime in general than neighboring countries that permit gun ownership. This suggests that cultural and socio-economic factors influence the rate of violent crime, not the availability of guns.

2. There is not a recorded instance in either the US or Europe in which passing gun control measures reduced the violent crime rate from the level it was at before such laws were passed. In several cases, violent crime subsequently increased.

3. Records show that murderers almost always have a prior criminal record, and are thus the kind of people far less likely to obey gun laws in the first place.

4. The areas of the United States that permit gun ownership have a significantly lower rate of violent crime than those that have enacted gun control laws.

5. Further, violence is not spread evenly in America. Certain sub-cultures have much higher rates of violence. For example, urban African-Americans have a much higher murder rate than whites and rural African-Americans despite being far less likely to own a gun. If guns are really the problem, rather than say, gang involvement, this trend would necessarily be the opposite.

In short, there is no evidence that restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens to own guns does anything to stop violent crime. In some cases, the opposite seems to be true.