Controversy Over a Flag at a Tennessee College

[DGFone]

You know, what I can't really grasp is why people call it "business for behind closed doors". How about people take that and actually use it?

I don't want to see you making out in public, and I don't care if you're gay or straight, or whatever. NOT IN FRONT OF OTHERS.

[SlayerOfLight]

Regardless of the legal aspect, it still goes against cultural norms. You know how you said 9 out of 10 Americans are fine with homosexuality? This only proves how misconstrued your perception is.

Less than half of Americans, in my state of North Carolina, voted in favor of supporting same-sex marriage. An amendment to our constitution was proposed to define marriage as being male/female only, and it passed by a margin of over 20%.

It is not something Americans are okay with. Some parents have disowned their kids because they discovered their child was gay. That actually happens. I'm not kidding. Heck, if you even look gay, in any way, you're going to get beat up. At best, you'll only get some dirty looks.

This issue is the single most ridiculous issue we face today. It's not as severe as the Holocaust, but it is the civil rights movement of our time. It is no different from racism in America, in the 20th century.

This rather falls under the category of bullying and racism, something not uncommon in the U.S. Hardly looks like it has aything to do with gays having no rights. It are not just gays that deal with that problem. All those gay support movements make it look like gays need special treatment. It's just the fact that your, forgive me, so-called ''great'' Nation has to get over some things.

And yea what happens to gays is bad, but I still won't change my mind about my opinion much. If you support gay rights, I think it's better to just support movements against racism. Because as long as there is racism, gays will be facing those issues. Don't get me wrong, I'm also against gay hate. However, unlike you and most other people who seem to be hypnotised into believing that gays are like the most hated and poorest people on earth, I am not overreacting about it. Come to Europe and you'll see how gays are doing just fine in most European Nations.

[SlayerOfLight]

Racism: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

Well, Regulus got me started about racism by saying gay hate is no diffrent then racism... So then that remark should be rather towards him.

It's not like the right to marry is a right or anything. And 'no rights' is an exaggeration of 'less rights', nobody used the term 'no rights'.

Ok fair enough then, Gays do have lesser rights, but I can see the world slowly becomming more tolerant to homosexuality (not counting the people of the desert) so it will only be a matter of time before gay rights equal that of a non-homosexual.

No, they are not asking for special treatment. They are asking for normal treatment. That is the whole point of this discussion. They are not treated like 'regular' people. Did the Jews ask for 'special' treatment during the second world war? No, they asked for normal treatment, for equal rights and for human standards.

I'm not talking about gays, of course they want normal treatment. I'm talking about some people that come to the defence of homosexuality that overreact about it, and pretend the issue is worser then it already is. Like I said before, I am against gay hate and gay hate crimes too, only to a lesser degree. I just dont see how gays have it as bad as many people claim, that's all. Sucks for them to have lesser rights, but as long as there's no personal holocaust against them, and the seemingly fact that the world becomes more open to homosexuality, makes me wonder if it really is that much on an issue.

That's why we are talking about the United States. And if by 'many' you mean: Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Austria, France, the UK, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland and Iceland (Which is 13 out of the 50 European nationstates).

Yea but correct me if I'm wrong, in Europe gay hate doesn't seem to be as severe as in the U.S even though same sex marriage is not (yet) recognised in alot of Nations.

[Regulus]

I mentioned that it is no different from racism, on moral grounds. It is unjustified hate, simple as that.

The idea thar it's all a huge overreaction is one reason, of many, why progress is as slow as it is. People think it isn't important or that it doesn't matter because it doesn't affect them.

But it is important. Government should always look after and protect the rights of people, first and foremost. The issue is important because the exact opposite is happening, and a lot of people just don't care.

[Regulus]

Morally speaking, discrimination against homosexuals is no different from discrimination against other races. I'm not saying the two are the same; what I am saying is that they're both stupid and wrong on many levels.

[TheLionPrince]

Here's the thing, couldn't Gilgamesh be the same person as Noah (despite the story differences) since they were both Mesopotamians? It's pretty much a documented fact that the Hebrews were once part of the Mesopotamian complex of cultures.

Then why should the epic of Gilgamesh be biblically accepted when the myth of An and Ki is in biblical terms completely ridiculous? Why would the Bible say Mesopotamian story X is true and Mesopotamian story Y is false and on what evidence is that decision based? Why copy Gilgamesh and reject polytheism?

I mean, of course they are the same (fictional IMO) person. It's basically the same story (there are some differences), it's nothing more than a culture created within an older culture.

I'm not sure how to answer your question in an articulate approach. Several ancient civilizations have similar creation myths and have parallel flood myths. Those events probably happened, but each civilization have their different version. The Hebrew civilization was the only civilization that had direct communication with YHWH, the Hebrew God, whom told them he is the only true and living God, which is why Judaism (and later on Christianity) is a monotheistic religion that rejects polytheism. Yes, the Sumerian texts predate the writings of the Torah, but one has to remember that before the Torah was written, the Genesis stories were passed down from generation to generation as oral stories.

Couldn't God be the same person as Zeus since Christianity was founded when the Roman empire occupied both the Greek and the Hebrews? Yet we ridicule Zeus and praise God, but we are willing to accept that Noah and Gilgamesh are the same person.

That logic seems flawed to me. Is Jesus the same person as Horus? Because their stories are almost identical.

Here's the thing, Christianity springs from the Judaic religion, but with Jesus of Nazareth worshiped as the Messiah and Son of God added to it after his ascension to heaven. Not to mention, Judaism originated centuries before Greek mythology came about.

The Twelve Olympian gods, according to Greek mythology, live on Mount Olympus while the Hebrew God lives in a supernatural realm known as the heaven. From the various pictures of it, Mount Olympus looks like an ordinary mountain raised 2,917 meters into the Earth's atmosphere, and has been climbed by numerous people. On the other hand, there are several personal accounts of near-death experiences that led to some indication their internal beings entered into another realm whether it be a hell or a heaven, which lies up with the Bible. A 2013 study done by PLOS ONE came to the conclusion that shows that near-death experience "memories have more characteristics than any kind of memory of real or imagined events and of other memories of a period of coma or impaired consciousness following an acquired severe brain dysfunction."

The mythology of Horus isn't as consistent as the birth of Jesus found in the Gospels. In Plutarch's version of the myth found in Moralia, it states that the Egyptian goddess Isis resurrected the dismembered parts of her husband, Osiris, and used her magical powers to form a male sex organ to create Horus. In the earlier Egyptian myths, Osiris's male sex organs actually survived and along with Isis's powers, created Horus.

With that said, here's the differences of the Horus accounts and the life of Jesus. Horus was born by a widowed goddess through necrophilia, while Jesus was born to a virgin mother impregnated by the Holy Spirit. The story of Horus doesn't mention him walking on water. The accounts of Horus state he had four semi-god followers known as the "Heru-Shemsu", while Jesus had twelve human disciplines. Horus did not resurrect his dead father, but actually avenged him when he defeated his uncle, Set. Finally, there are no sources that indicate Horus preached sermons, exorcised demons, died, and resurrected.

[TheLionPrince]

Just a few questions: Who says the Judeo-Christian creation myth is superior to all the other creation myths, while all have scientific proof of 0. And as you say, the stories have been handed down generation after generation without being written down. Then how can these stories be in any sense true or even plausible?

While there may be no historical proof of Adam and Eve's existence, the term, "Mitochondrial Eve", has thrown around in the study of human genetics that suggests that all living humans were descended from one specific matrilineal ancestor. Recently, back in August, there is a study done by Stanford University School of Medicine geneticists in which they reported the age of Mitochondrial Eve to be about 99,000 and 148,000 years, and the Y-chromosomal Adam to have lived between 120,000 and 156,000 years ago, based on genome sequencing of 69 people from 9 different populations. (source)

Yes those events probably happened. You are absolutely right. And here's the point. We can assume that flood must have been caused by a God and that the passed on story is absolutely true, or that this was a completely deformed story of an earthquake that resulted in a tsunami. What is more likely? That the laws of nature have been suspended in favor of your story, or that this story has grown completely ridiculous over generations?

I see your point on polytheism, but why? Wasn't it pure chance? Pure randomness? And if it was, it is very unlikely to be reliable.

Specifically on the Genesis stories, the laws of nature weren't necessarily suspended; it just rained for 40 days. In fact, according to this chart per time period, the highest level of rainfall in modern history was in Cherrapunji, India for approximately a year from August 1860 to July 1861 with a record of 1,042.0 inches of rain.


As for near-death experience memories being chemical hallucinations, this website, near-death.com, published an article some years ago stating that while the hallucination theory can explain a brain chemical basis, the theory cannot explain everything. Then, it goes on to list specific scientists who claim NDE memories are more logical than being a drug-fueled hallucination. One was by Psychologist John Gills:

"NDE accounts from varied times and cultures were found to be more orderly, logical, defined and predictable than comparable accounts from drug or illness-induced hallucination. Impressive data from Tart, Moody and Carl Becker also argue for the objective elements of a NDE, including returning with knowledge later verified and third-party observations of odd death-bed phenomena (such as luminosity or apparitions)."

Another was by Neuropsychiatrist Peter Fenwick who stated the difference between NDE and hallucinations:

The difficulty with those theories is that when you create these wonderful states by taking drugs, you're conscious. In the NDE, you are unconscious. One of the things we know about brain function in unconsciousness, is that you cannot create images and if you do, you cannot remember them."

Horus was:

Conceived by a virgin mother named Meri, and had a stepfather named Seb (Joseph)

Okay, there are two problems with this. First, the Egyptian name, Meri, is not exactly a name, but an adjective. It means "beloved" so in the Egyptian stories, and Horus's mother was actually named Isis. To describe the goddess as beloved, you would say Meri-Isis. Second, there are at least six women named Mary in the New Testament so it is not exclusive to just the Virgin Mary.

The name, Seb, is an alternate spelling of the Egyptian God known as Geb who was the father of Isis therefore the grandfather of Horus. After Horus defeated Set, Geb supported Horus's right to rule following Osiris's death. Hardly anything of a stepfather figure because Isis was the protector of Horus from Set, his uncle. This is different from Joseph (a descendant of King David) who was not the father of the Virgin Mary, but simply chosen by God to raise his son so Mary wouldn't be stoned to death for pregnancy outside of marriage.

The only similarities from here were that the parent(s) of Horus and Jesus fled to escape from their child from being murdered by an evil king, Set or Herod the Great in the Biblical stories.

Was born in a cave, his birth announced by an angel, heralded by a star and attended by shepherds

Horus was born when his mother, Isis, restored the body of her murdered husband Osiris, and used her powers to create a golden [censored] to create a son.

Attended a special rite of passage at the age of twelve and there is no data on the child
from the age of 12 to 30

There is no record of this in the Egyptian stories.

Was baptized in a river at the age of 30, and his baptizer was later beheaded

There wasn't any baptizer character in the Egyptian stories. Yes, Gerald Massey did write of an "Anup the Baptizer", but there is no such character in the Horus legend. The closest there is to that character is Anubis, but he's the god of the dead.

Had 12 disciples

Like I said before, Horus did have followers, but the number just don't calculate to the number of twelve.

Performed miracles, exorcized demons, raised someone from the dead, walked on water

The only miracle that was told in the Horus stories was done by Thoth, the god of medicine. When Horus battles Set for the throne, Seth stabs the left eye of his nephew. Horus's eye was replaced by Thoth who restores it out of moonlight, and creates the Eye of Horus. Horus did not raise anyone from the dead, not even his dead father, Osiris. His mother, Isis, briefly resurrected Osiris and used their powers to create Horus.

Horus is the zoomorph of a falcon, and can therefore fly over various bodies of water, not exactly walk on it. However, I don't recall the existence of demons in Egyptian mythology; all deities are either gods and goddesses.

Was called “Iusa”, the “ever-becoming son” and the “Holy Child”

Meh, I'm not sure if those terms were used in recorded Egyptian texts. Terms used to described Horus were "lord of the sky" or "the distant one" referring to his falcon zoomorph according to this website.

Delivered a “Sermon on the Mount”, and his followers recounted his sayings

I looked and looked, but found no creditable source for this.

Was transfigured on the Mount

Proof?

Was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and was resurrected

Horus was never crucified in the original story, though this is not without mentioning that Horus and Ra (the god of the sun) merged together so when the sun "dies" as in a sunset, it rises again in the morning. Plus, Horus is a god so he's supposed to be immortal.

Called “Way”, “the Truth the Light”, “Messiah”, “God’s Anointed Son”, “Son of Man”, “Good Shepherd”, “Lamb of God”, “Word made flesh”, “Word of Truth”, “the KRST” or “Anointed One”

Those terms weren't used in Egyptian times. In fact, Messiah was originally a term used to describe Cyrus the Great.

Was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish, Lamb and Lion.

The only animal Horus is associated with is the falcon.

Came to fulfill the Law, and was supposed to reign one thousand years

There wasn't an Egyptian "law" for Horus to fulfill, and there was no mention of a millennial reign in Egyptian mythology.

No sources you say? One only needs to read the Egyptian equivalent of the Bible, The Book of the Dead or Papyrus of Ani. And I'm not saying that is a valid source, but then again, neither is the Bible.

And then again, who can prove that it is all true, that it is the way we must live? Who can? Show me a God and I will happily follow his rules.

Just believe Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for your sins and the sins of the world, and you will be saved, and he will show himself on your behalf not naturally, but spiritually. After all, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[TheLionPrince]

Fine, if that's you want.

Spoiler: show

Yes, I know the term, "Mitochondrial Eve", doesn't refer to the biblical Eve. It's simply a scientific term that refers to the descendants of mankind originated from one humanoid female. Adam was the only man on Earth for quite a short period of time before the births of his sons (and 130 years when he gives birth to his third known son, Seth) compared to what it says in Genesis 5:4-5 which refers to him being the father of "many sons and daughters" for 800 years of his lifespan. Overall, Adam lived 930 years on Earth before he died due to no known diseases at the time and a healthy gene pool. So, yeah, Adam's lifespan would have overlapped with the lifespans of his sons and daughters.

So, the biblical content does connect with the article that is mostly accurate.

As for geological evidence of Noah's Flood, in fact last year, archaeologist Robert Ballard (who discovered the remains of the RMS Titanic in 1985) investigated a theory in which the now-salty Black Sea was once an isolated freshwater lake surrounded by farmland, until it was flooded by an enormous wall of water from the rising Mediterranean Sea, and unearthed an ancient shoreline which is evident that a possible flood occurred there. Through the use of carbon dating, they dated the object to have originated in 5000 B.C. which some experts believe Noah's Flood to have happened in. (source)

As for 'Meri', this will be an unsolved debate in terms of linguistics. While it's possible the name has Egyptian origins, the name, Mary, derives from the Hebrew word מִרְיָם, Miryam, which has a meaning of "bitterness" (referring to the word myrrh). Various meanings have indicated its use of "rebelliousness", "bitter sea", or "wished for child".

As for Horus's one of three birthdays and one falling on December 25, each civilization celebrates their version of the winter solstice. In terms of Jesus, it is highly unlikely Jesus was born in December since in the book of Luke, there were present shepherds with their sheep in the field which would be sheltered inside if the temperatures were cold. Not to mention, it's cold and wet in Bethlehem which is an unsafe environment to birth a child.

So, it can be assumed that the birth of Jesus either occurred in the summer or early fall. Years later, the early Christians took the Roman winter solstice celebration of Saturnalia which celebrated Sol Invictus (the Roman sun god) which occurs in December 25, and revised into celebrating Jesus as the "sun of righteousness". As for Horus, he is also a sun god so his birth during the winter solstice makes sense. The celebration of Horus most definitely preceded the Saturnalia celebration when the Romans celebrated their version of a sun god which the Christians took into celebrating Jesus.

And I stand corrected in the existence of Egyptian demons. It is still unproven (to me) where in the Horus stories he cast them down.

Kindly enough, I was able to find some source of this "Sermon on the Mount". According to this website, Horus said,

I have given bread to the hungry man and water to the thirsty man and clothing to the naked person and a boat to the shipwrecked mariner."

This is in comparison to what Jesus said in Matthew 25:36-37,

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me..."

This is a fair comparison and no doubt that the passages are similar, though the article notes of a survey of twenty Egyptologists, and only ten of them agree that Horus did not have twelve disciplines or was an incarnation of God that requires salvation for eternal judgment which the sermon Horus gave claims to state.

Okay, now you're shifting the subject of Horus being crucified to the use of the ankh in funeral services which was later adopted into the use of the Christian cross for the dead, gods in a cruciform pose to protect the dead, and Horus outstretching his wings that was later picked by the early Christians? Your arguments are not lining up at least to me. Jesus in the cruciform pose has little to the Egyptian version of it since crucifixion was a form of capital punishment and an otherwise humiliating execution originating the Roman Empire. Horus did not raise Osiris from the death; Osiris, in his death, became the Egyptian God of the Underworld. But, yes, the Christian symbolism of the cross was taken from pagans.

And you're comparing two different situations. I was asking for evidence when you were comparing a deity to another while you're accusing me of the lack of evidence of the existence of a deity. It's widely accepted by historians that Jesus of Nazareth was baptized by John the Baptist and crucified by Pontius Pilate through Flavius Josephus's writings in Antiquities of the Jews. If performing miracles, driving out demons, walking on water, and resurrecting from the dead is too much for you to believe, that's fine by me.