Kopa

[Mark]

What about the idea of Kiara being born first?

It's outlined pretty well here:

http://www.animationsource.org/lion_kin ... id_film=14

I can't see any wholes in it - the entire plot of SP slots in between the second last and last scenes of the original film. It explains why Simba is a more nervous parent with Kiara than Kopa (because she's his first cub); It explains why the issue with the oulanders is never mentioned in the Six New Adventures (because they have been resolved); It explains why Kopa is never mentioned in SP (because he wasn't actually born yet).

To me, it all makes sense - but can anyone (more eagle eyed than me) spot any problems with this theory?

The only thing I can see is this: At the end of TLK, why was the presentation of Kopa (second child) shown and not the presentation of Kiara (the ceremonies are so different that I can't accept them being the same cub)?

Actually, I found an anwser for this as well - Kopa being the first male cub, he is the future king and therefore his birth is the next significant thing in the timeline of lion kings.

Yeah, I know that the chances are Disney never even considered this - but I like having a 'canon' story in my head, it makes me feel like I appreciate the universe much better.

So, any plotholes with this theory?

[DGFone]

Apart from the timing being way off (The ending of TLK 1 is after SP?), the theory is strong. But it is not solid, with the main reason being that it's hard to stuff an entire movie in between 15 seconds (or however long it showed the Pridelands healing in TLK 1). There is no real reason why the outsiders were banished. Then there is always the age thing: Simba and Nala would have to grow younger after SP for them to look the way they did in the end of TLK 1. It's a good theory, and it has its strong points, but it still has a few holes in it. Some of the holes are rather big, unfortunately.

[Annie]

What about the idea of Kiara being born first?

It's outlined pretty well here:

http://www.animationsource.org/lion_kin ... id_film=14

I can't see any wholes in it - the entire plot of SP slots in between the second last and last scenes of the original film. It explains why Simba is a more nervous parent with Kiara than Kopa (because she's his first cub); It explains why the issue with the oulanders is never mentioned in the Six New Adventures (because they have been resolved); It explains why Kopa is never mentioned in SP (because he wasn't actually born yet).

To me, it all makes sense - but can anyone (more eagle eyed than me) spot any problems with this theory?

The only thing I can see is this: At the end of TLK, why was the presentation of Kopa (second child) shown and not the presentation of Kiara (the ceremonies are so different that I can't accept them being the same cub)?

Actually, I found an anwser for this as well - Kopa being the first male cub, he is the future king and therefore his birth is the next significant thing in the timeline of lion kings.

Yeah, I know that the chances are Disney never even considered this - but I like having a 'canon' story in my head, it makes me feel like I appreciate the universe much better.

So, any plotholes with this theory?

This is also my theory ^^

[Daenerys]

canon or fanon, Kopa is just a neat character

[KopsTheTerminator]

What about the idea of Kiara being born first?

It's outlined pretty well here:

http://www.animationsource.org/lion_kin ... id_film=14

I can't see any wholes in it - the entire plot of SP slots in between the second last and last scenes of the original film. It explains why Simba is a more nervous parent with Kiara than Kopa (because she's his first cub); It explains why the issue with the oulanders is never mentioned in the Six New Adventures (because they have been resolved); It explains why Kopa is never mentioned in SP (because he wasn't actually born yet).

To me, it all makes sense - but can anyone (more eagle eyed than me) spot any problems with this theory?

The only thing I can see is this: At the end of TLK, why was the presentation of Kopa (second child) shown and not the presentation of Kiara (the ceremonies are so different that I can't accept them being the same cub)?

Actually, I found an anwser for this as well - Kopa being the first male cub, he is the future king and therefore his birth is the next significant thing in the timeline of lion kings.

Yeah, I know that the chances are Disney never even considered this - but I like having a 'canon' story in my head, it makes me feel like I appreciate the universe much better.

So, any plotholes with this theory?

But where are Kovu and Kiara and why would Simba and Nala have a cub at such a late age when they're supposed to be GRANDPARENTS?

[AdAstrα]

And why did they hold a presentation for him if he wasn't the first born? (I know there's been some discussion about whether or not it's just the first born cub that gets presented, but still, could be a huge flaw!)

[Jiirani]

It's hardly a huge flaw as when the first movie was being created the creators had no plans whatsoever to make the cub into an actual character at all. The character, 'Fluffy' is just a hollow character created to have no purpose, and was only made to show that the circle of life was whole again. I hardly think creating something with no proper purpsoe at all is a flaw.

[KopsTheTerminator]

Conclusion: You can't place Kopa anywhere in SP. SP and TLK6NA are completely different universes and can't become one. (HA! @ Kiara. SP and TLK6NA are not one. *Mindblow*)

[Mark]

Apart from the timing being way off (The ending of TLK 1 is after SP?), the theory is strong. But it is not solid, with the main reason being that it's hard to stuff an entire movie in between 15 seconds (or however long it showed the Pridelands healing in TLK 1).

I can see what you mean, but is this jump in time between the second last and last scenes any different from the jump in time during 'Hakuna Matata'?

There is no real reason why the outsiders were banished.

Nothing established, anyway - of course, there could have been time for something to happen to get them banished - but not much of it. After the penultimate scene of TLK, there is no set period before the first cub was born. In that time, perhaps something happened to get the Outsiders banished.

Then there is always the age thing: Simba and Nala would have to grow younger after SP for them to look the way they did in the end of TLK 1.

Hmm, I can see where you're coming from here; screenshots follow:


This is a screenshot of the opening of SP. This depicts the birth of Kiara, which according to this theory occurs before this next image.


The above screenshot is from the end of TLK. In this theory, this is the birth of Kopa, the second child (so Simba & Nala would be older here.)

The lions in SP look different, but I'm not sure about older; especially given the slightly different art style used in SP.

But where are Kovu and Kiara and why would Simba and Nala have a cub at such a late age when they're supposed to be GRANDPARENTS?

In this theory, being born first, Kiara (and therefore Kovu) should feature in the following areas:

Six New Adventures
End of TLK

- Where are Kovu and Kiara during the Six New Adventures (which is where the character of Kopa originates)? Very good question - they're evidently not there as the characters hadn't even been dreamed up when the books were created. But, as far as I can remember, there's not explicit mention that they aren't there either. The stories actually with Kopa in (not all of them) are quite simplistic and don't really deny the existence of Kiara. However, a lot of the stories are actually stories-within-stories, so Kiara wouldn't feature anyway. So I don't think the books deny Kiara's existence despite her not actually being in them.

- And where are Kiara and Kovu at the ceremony at the end of TLK? Again, they're not there - but that doesn't mean to say they aren't around. Perhaps it's not traditional for other children of the King to be present at the presentation of a new male cub? Perhaps Kiara and Kovu would come and stand with them later? Also, and this is a story-external reason, it wouldn't have made sense for TLK to randomly introduce two new characters at the end of the movie.

Also, two cubs are born either way - surely the order doesn't make a difference as to the ages of Simba and Nala?

And why did they hold a presentation for him if he wasn't the first born? (I know there's been some discussion about whether or not it's just the first born cub that gets presented, but still, could be a huge flaw!)

Good point there - but surely they would present Kopa as he is the future king? In a lion pride, there is usually one male and many females - and in TLK universe it seems the king is always a male. Kiara's birth would have been regarded as important (hence the ceremony at the start of Simba's Pride) - but not as important as Kopa's because, despite him being the second born, he is the first male and so the future king...

[KopsTheTerminator]

At the last point: But wouldn't that be irrensponsible? Simba and Nala would probably die before they would be able to teach Kopa everything about ruling a kingdom. Kiara could not have that knowledge since a queen has different duties as seen in the original movie, where Mufasa did most duties outside Pride Rock while Sarabi was simply enjoying her time. And besides, unless Kiara agreed to give the throne to Kopa, that would have been kind of harsh on Kiara.. She was taught how to be a queen her entire life instead of doing what normal cubs do, and then suddenly it all goes on a waste? That would have been really out of character for Simba.