Lifespans

[Carl]

I could have sworn there was a topic about the characters' ages already but I can't find one. So, there's something I've been thinking about that I thought I'd bring up here as there's been a lot of debate about the age of the characters—especially now that The Lion Guard has been announced.

As we all know, real lions only live to be a few years old, compared to humans, with an average lifespan of somewhere from 10 to 15 years old in the wild.

Now some ages people have debated in TLK: how old was Simba when he returned to Pride Rock (i.e. how long did he stay in the jungle)?
What was the age difference between Mufasa and Scar?
How old is Rafiki, exactly?
And one that's come up recently; was Simba too old to have another cub after Kiara (Kion)?
Etc...

We can never have a true answer for questions like these, but I've noticed some things that are interesting to discuss on this topic at any rate.

There's a fanfic writer, who I will not name because she left the fandom and removed her works, who gave the TLK characters the lifespans that humans today have. It certainly didn't detract from her work, in fact it improved it and made everything more complex and in depth. However, it always seemed to feel a little off to me because real lions just don't live that long.

But recently I've been thinking, in "Be Prepared," Scar has that line, doesn't he: "decades of denial"? This implies that he was denied the position of king for at least 20 years, which is longer already than most lions live. We already know the characters are anthropomorphic (they can talk and rationalize like humans, as well as scheming and using their paws as hands, etc.) so is it that far-fetched to assume that perhaps, as a part of their anthropomorphism they have a lifespan the length of a humans? This would mean that Simba would have been in the jungle for longer than many people guestimate (4-5 years), but it would also mean that length of time would be a smaller percentage of the characters' lives.

Following this theory, it makes sense for Scar and Mufasa to look as old as they do at the beginning and for Scar to still be alive by the time Simba is grown. Considering that TLK lions are also shown to have only one cub at a time (another human trait) it could also imply that Mufasa is a few years older than Scar, perhaps one or two or even up to 10, which would much better explain Mufasa being chosen as the next king than the "they were born in the same litter but Mufasa was a few seconds before" theory. It also makes sense that Rafiki looks old at the beginning but is still around at the end of SP (the average lifespan of a mandrill is 20, potentially twice that of lions), and explains how Simba looks older in SP, but still not really old. If Simba was 20ish at the end of TLK that would make him around 40ish at the end of SP (the typical converted age fans apply) and would leave him young enough to reproduce again. So it occurred to me that maybe that fic writer was on the right track—maybe they do live to be as old as we do. I mean we know they aren't realistic lions, so it's not all that far-fetched I don't think. We also know that canonically there are no humans in TLK (not that there can't be in fics or what-have-you) so that also makes this more likely to be true (the main species in works without humans tend to have human lifespans and traits) as the lions seem to be replacing humans in this universe.

Or maybe this all sounds crazy to all of you and I'm just a lunatic.

But I'm interested to know what you guys think of this idea.

[Regulus]

For my interpretations and thus my fics and self-canon, I use their lifespans in captivity. Sure, lions in the wild only live to be 10-15 years or so, but lions in captivity can live up to 25 or 30 years, but maintain the quick rise to maturity. It's the middle ground between the two.

Lions usually don't live too long in the wild because they get killed or driven off by other lions--or injured, or die of disease. Take all that away, and assume that the characters in TLK don't suffer from any of those problems, and the measurements make sense. There's no reason why Simba or Scar wouldn't live to be 30, considering their lifestyles.

My guesses are that Mufasa and Scar were ten years old when Simba was born (just to keep it simple). Mufasa died a year later, and then Scar ruled from the age of 11-14. This puts Simba at the age of five when he reclaimed the throne. This is a reasonable estimate--he obviously isn't fully mature until after Kiara is born, at which point he looks more like Mufasa. His mane isn't as thick, nor is it as dark as it is in SP. At the start of SP, I assume that Simba is about seven or eight, and towards the end he is closer to ten or eleven. Thus, Kiara is no more than three or four years old, at the starting point of sexual maturity by the end of SP.

Assuming Sarabi is the same age as Mufasa, even she is *only* seventeen or eighteen years old by the end of SP--still well within range of a captive lion's lifespan. But this doesn't even matter, because she isn't even in that movie. For all we know, she could have died sometime before that. The real unit of measurement here is Zira, and again, assuming her age is the same as Mufasa and Scars, it makes sense for her to still be alive, but to have an old woman's voice and be on the declining side of maturity.

Now, the one thing that thwarts all of this is that the Pridelands are burnt to the ground and then regrow in the time it takes Kiara to... exist, for lack of a better word. For that reason, I theorize that Kiara was conceived during the "Nala eyes" scene, and the reason why the Pridelands were able to grow back after only a year is because the flora were never totally dead. I simply assume that it was just a dry season that caused most of the desolation, and only a few patches actually burnt to the ground before the fire was extinguished by the rain.

As another note, the life spans for mandrills easily exceed 40 years in captivity. Considering that he sounds old during Simba's time, it isn't unreasonable to assume that he had been around the Pridelands for generations. This fact was the basis for his inclusion in my story.

-> http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/a ... us_sphinx/

Mandrill's maximum recorded life span is 46 years. Obviously, being primates, they already age much more similarly to humans.

-> http://www.pittsburghzoo.org/animal.aspx?id=35

The average lifespan of the African Lion in the wild is 15 to 18 years, and 25 to 30 years in captivity.

[Carl]

Well, that does make sense except for one thing.

[quote]My guesses are that Mufasa and Scar were ten years old when Simba was born (just to keep it simple). Mufasa died a year later, and then Scar ruled from the age of 11-14.[/quote]

Decades of denial. Unless Scar is exaggerating, misusing the word "decades," or they have a different definition of the word, then he has to already be at least 20 when the "Be Prepared" sequence takes place.

[Regulus]

It's a song. I doubt that's meant to be taken literally. More than likely, it's hyperbole, as is most of the song. Remember, "seen for the wonder I am." It's from Scar's point of view, so he does have the freedom to exaggerate how long he's been waiting, just like he exaggerates himself.

And besides, 11 years, as it was, is still decades. 11 years is 1.1 decades. It could also be 15, which would round up to 2 if we can't have decimal places. Technically, that can still work.

But even with that said, I don't really see it as being a big deal. I tend to be very loose when it comes to language. Lions don't technically purr, sweat, or blush, but I still apply those words in my fics knowing so. I also use things like minute, moment, or second just as liberally, for example. And, as I've recently noted, I tend to have problems with overgeneralizations like "everyone" when I really mean "90% of people," or "daily" when I really mean "average of 4 times a week." Anyway, point is, I think of decades being used in place of something like ages, generations, eons, eras, forevers, or eternities. Sure, the exact meanings for each word are different, but they can all be used more vaguely to mean a long time.

My interpretations of words are never strict like that, so it's a moot point to me. I've picked up on it before, but I never took the line seriously to mean anything other than "I've put up with Mufasa's reign for long enough! I wanna be teh kingz nao!!!"

[TheLionPrince]

I'm wondering how could you have miss the other thread about the characters' age. It was only a few threads down. Here is the most recent thread about the characters' age, and the other one before the overhaul.

For my estimation of the characters' ages, I try to rely on the creators' words, and when absent of that, then, I resort to the real-life statistics. An August 1993 working draft script confirms months have passed since Simba's ceremony when we first see him as a cub, and given Simba's mention of wanting to "eat a whole zebra", he's certainly older than three months when real lion cubs start eating meat. In real life, a male lion begin to grow their mane by two years old, and reach full maturity at three years. However, the working script states Simba is a "mane-toting adolescent" when we first see him with a mane confirming Simba is not a full-grown adult yet. So, adult Simba is somewhere between the ages of two and three years (but I'll stick to three). On the audio commentary, the filmmakers mentioned wanting to insert "Kenya, 2 years later" when the scene transitions to the Pride Lands under Scar. If that piece of information is still valid, then adult Simba by the time we see him again stargazing with Timon and Pumbaa is five years old, but if not, then, he is still three years old.

The time it takes for the Pride Lands to become fruitful is tricky. It could easily have took months to a few years for the savanna grassland to recover from the drought, but I'll stick with a one year recovery gap between the time of Simba's ascension and the presentation of Fluffy/Kiara. Given Nala is likely the same age as Simba, she is old enough to produce cubs given in real life, lionesses are able to give birth when they reach four years old.

By the start of Simba's Pride, Simba and Nala are four years, by my estimates. Kiara and Kovu are meant to be interpreted as teenagers by the second half of the movie because the director stated Kovu was a "teenaged killer" in the Proud of Simba's Pride documentary (video at 4:27). And given he has a mane, he is also older than two years old. By the end of the sequel, Simba and Nala are six years old while Kiara and Kovu are over two years old.

As for Mufasa and Scar, I see no reason why they can't be littermates. It makes little sense for their parents to reproduce when they already have an heir, but given Simba and Nala giving birth to Kion when Kiara is full grown, Scar being born a few years after Mufasa may not be out of the question. Given his status as the alpha male, Mufasa is no less than five years of age, and Scar is about 4-5 years when he first appears. Add in 3 years of Simba's life before he returns and by the time Scar dies, he is about 7-8 years old.

I'm also in agreement with Regulus's comments with Rafiki's age and that the lyric, "Decades of denial", should not be taken literally.

[Carl]

[quote="TheLionPrince"]I'm wondering how could you have miss the other thread about the characters' age. It was only a few threads down. Here is the most recent thread about the characters' age, and the other one before the overhaul.[/quote]
I searched the forum by keywords and nothing came up for any of them, so your guess is as good as mine considering I saw each keyword I tried in the very first post. I guess a mod can merge this one into that one, if they see fit.

As to the rest, oh well. I thought it was an interesting interpretation.