who would have won: pridelanders vs outlanders

[Hatari05]

I doubt anyone would've won, like you said one side has nothing to lose the other everything but having nothing can drive someone they were both motivated and while Nala obviously trained her forces she doesn't come off as a military leader Zira does. Zira trained her whole army, she comes off as a cunning strategists. Her plan to infiltrate the pride, the way she organized the ambush and even how she directs her forces. Zira is a soldier of war her forces are not just better trained they have better planning and tactics too. This gives the outsiders the edge but like you said the pride Landers have everything to lose, they have more to fight for. This evens the odds to the point that I think they would've killed each other leaving only a few survivors on both sides.

Zira would've likely beat Simba. While Simba is definitely stronger and more powerful he is likely no where near as trained as Zira or as durable. Zira definitely seems like the type of person who would ignore pain and just tank her opponents attacks. Simba would've likely lost to scar who was not a full on warrior, Zira trained an entire army by herself. Simba isn't that kind of fighter from what we have seen. I think Zira would've killed him especially since Simba wasn't fully healed.

So in conclusion I believe the war would be a massacre leaving very few survivors but I feel Zira would kill Simba before likely being killed by Nala and likely many members of the pride, (I feel Zira would likely take multiple lionesses to bring down) I also think she would die laughing at her killers. So yeah not a pleasant conclusion to the battle and certainly not kid friendly but that's my view of it Zira would finish her main desire but likely get almost everyone else killed in the process. In the end nobody would of won.

[SimbasGuard]

Uhm actually Simba did defeat Scar, granted it was due to Simba out maneuvering him rather than overpowering him. However the reason Simba was alert enough to accomplish this is because Scar underestimated Simba. Scar's claw swipes did not hut Simba as much as Scar thought they did, because he thought pouncing on Simba was a tactically sound move.

Also if Simba expects to successfully hang on to his territory, he has to be at the top of his game.

Zira also underestimated Simba, Simba was not nearly as injured from The Outsiders ambush as she though. Going by what we see in the movie Simba shows no sign of injury or even fatigue from the Outsiders ambush during the final battle. This would indicate that Simba is far stronger and more resilient that Zira suspects. I think Zira's underestimating Simba in this manner would have led to her being overconfident in the fight. Simba also has the advantage of his mane, Zira is quicker, but Simba is better protected from her attacks. Also because Simba is stronger than Zira he would not need to land as many hits to take Zira down.

Zira also made sure The Outsiders softened Simba up for her before she confronted him. This would indicate that Zira felt Simba would have otherwise had the advantage in a head to head confrontation.

As for who would have one if Simba and Zira were not involved. Well this question comes to mind.
Without Zira to lead and coach them, would The Outsiders have been able to execute their attack so efficiently? Would that have even tried to attack at all with no leader? Now granted Vitani could have stepped up to lead, but I don't know if she would have done so of her own vocation.

[Hatari05]

Intriguing points I admit would've liked to have seen Zira fight I'm pretty sure she was quite capable of it. She did let others soften Simba up rather that was because she wasn't certain she could win or just a tactical choice is unknown. The loss of a leader is always devastating to their forces but would the loss of Simba effect the pride Landers? It's an intriguing question Zira was the head and was the reason for the attack but I think by the battle the outsiders were committed to their cause and prepared to fight to the bitter end what other choice did they have until Kiara offered an alternative. Was Vitani a leader from what I got there didn't seem to be a second in command, Zira controlled everything.

[SimbasGuard]

You're right. Vitani was never officially declared 2nt in command. Zira likely had no contingency scenario where she was not in power. I just assumed that with Kovu gone, Nuka dead, and Zira not being available. Vitani being Zira's daughter would likely be who The Outsiders would look to for leadership. Whether Vitani would even want to assume command is something else I have no way of knowing for sure.

Not having Simba would have definitely been an issue for The Pride Landers, but they would not have lacked leadership in the fight because they have Nala to lead them. As she basically lead them against the Hyenas in the first movie.

[Amur_Tiger]

and as any Crusader Kings II player would know, having inheritance well organized is a pretty big asset.

On the subject of Simba's toughness, it should be noted that neither Scar nor Zira were really eager to go 1v1 with him until their backs were against the wall, they viewed it as a last resort, likely viewing him as carrying some of the 'brute strength' that Scar credits Mufasa with, father's son and all that. The only thing I wouldn't credit to Simba's toughness is his 'recovery' after the ambush, I think this had more to do with the writers getting themselves out of the corner they'd painted themselves into as prolonged injury would have cast Kiara's running away in a very unsympathetic light.

[SimbasGuard]

[quote="Amur_Tiger"]The only thing I wouldn't credit to Simba's toughness is his 'recovery' after the ambush, I think this had more to do with the writers getting themselves out of the corner they'd painted themselves into as prolonged injury would have cast Kiara's running away in a very unsympathetic light.[/quote]

Fair enough, but from an in story perspective, I think we just have to assume that Simba is resilient emough to have recoverd from his injures far faster than Zira and the Outsiders thought he would.

[Alexterri1]

Its a tough question because both sides have equal advantages. The pridelanders had stronger numbers and were stronger physically, but the outlanders had extensive training and were also probably more determined. If I had a pick a side, I'd say the pridelanders, but I think there would have been a lot of deaths from both sides before any kind of end.

[Weirdmofo]

(Threads probably dead but I'mna post anyway.)
Well from what we saw, and heard the Outsiders had been training for years to take down Simba who is a male, which would make taking down lionesses a simple task. Where as the Prideland lionesses were trained to hunt, which would naturally put them at a huge disadvantage seeing as they weren't really trained for fighting other lionesses. And, I mean in the actual fight scene this is made clear by the fact that the Pridelander lionesses were losing, most of them looked like they were getting ripped apart. And, when you take into consideration he fact that there were enough lionesses on Zira's side to not only fight, and take down most of the Prideland lionesses one on one, a Pridelander got caught between two of them, and another got dragged to the ground by her tail, only to be attacked by 3 lionesses who clearly tore her apart. (Both outnumbered lionesses looked like they were about to get eaten IMO.) And, even still there were still enough Outsiders for a group of them to chase timone, and Pumba, while anther group swarmed Simba. Meaning if Zira, and Simba had sat out the Outsiders would've outnumbered the Pridelanders. And, remember they had been training to help take down a male lion meaning other lionesses naturally wouldn't stand a chance. If the battle had continued it's sad to say, but I'm pretty sure the Outsiders would've torn apart, and possibly even eaten most of the Pridelanders (Given the Outsiders's extreme living conditions.), I'm sorry but based on all the facts, and what was actually shown I'm convinced that the Outsiders would've won.

[SimbasGuard]

[quote="SimbasGuard"]True, but when your back is against the wall (so to Speak) you fight harder. So it is entirely possible that despite being out numbered, the Pridelanders would have wanted it more. Also due to being well feed. They would have had better stamina, and could have fought longer.[/quote]

[quote="SimbasGuard"]Granted, but the advantages The Outsiders had in agility would be off-set by the fact that The Pridelanders are bigger and stronger.
As for The Outsiders being more vicious, that is true. However The Pridelander Lionesses have to hunt for a living as well, they are no strangers to going in for the Kill.
Being out numbered in a fight is an unenviable position at best, but if you are stronger than any of your opponents. there is still a chance that you could come out on top or at least fight long enough for help to arrive.
The Pridelanders would not have been guaranteed victory, had Simba and Zira not been a part of the fight, but victory for The Pridelanders would have still been possible. Very hard fought, but still possible.[/quote]

[quote="SimbasGuard"]Another thing we know is that Nala is a very capable fighter, and even though they have Simba to protect them. It seems unlikely that The Pridelander Lionesses would be completely unprepared for an attack by the outsiders. They are after all Simba's army as well. I know it is total speculation on my part, but I doubt Nala would have done nothing to ensure that her Lionesses were ready should Simba need them to fight at his side. Another thing is while the outsiders had nothing too loose and would fight with all they had. The Pridelanders had everything to loose, I am quite sure that would have made The Pridelanders fight just as fiercely as The Outsiders.[/quote]

The Pride Land Lionesses should not be underestimated. There is just as much reason to believe that they could have been victorious. Uphill battle or not.

[FriendlyHyena]

I'm not so sure the odds were as in Zira's favor as everyone thinks. Remember, her first plan had been to have Kovu assassinate Simba and somehow take the Pridelands that way (how she was hoping to do it without Kovu being killed by the Pridelanders in retaliation is a mystery). Her first plan doesn't seem like it was brute force (despite her lyrics in "That's My Lullaby" of being ok with bloody battles.)

It's quite a possibility that the double pain of Kovu's betrayal and Nuka's death made Zira and her pride so angry that they no longer cared about losses on their side as long as they made Simba pay by the time of the final battle. It's quite clear Zira and the rest of her side do NOT share the same willingness to fight and get even with Simba at any cost, as, when Vitani defects and Zira threatens to have her killed too, they turn on Zira, rather than side with her.