Timon

[EdtheHyena]

Well, it's thanks to him that I found out what a meerkat is!

[Ananda]

One of my fave characters. Love Timon.

[Timon the great]

This is how I sometimes, feel about the haters since I found out about how some areas of MLK and the internet in general, really have been towards him and over the years:



I know it isn't true that everyone hates him and I'm extremely thankful that it truly isn't. But this web drawing done by someone else gives a very good illustration of how a Timon person generally feels inside about this.

[Zonofon]

Remarkable illustration of the fact that everything must have its limits. Including criticism. I do not mind criticism, but it must be argumented. I believe that is impossible only criticize and not find anything positive.

[AnnaM]

I really want to post my opinion about Timon, since I worked hard writing it down. I had a really unsettled feeling after reading Timon's character page. Regulus, you'll see that the format of my post is a contrast between my opinion and your opinion, so please don't take it personally even though I use the word you to refer to you a lot in a seemingly accusative fashion. Please don't take it personally; it's just business. I'd really regret posting this if I hurt feelings, though.

[quote="Regulus"]"His entire existence, in the first film, is nothing but comic relief."[/quote]
The purpose of Timon's existence is a matter of opinion, but I definitely disagree with yours! If it weren't for Timon and Pumbaa, Simba would be dead. I think Timon and Pumbaa added more moral meaning to the movie by doing something (saving Simba) without gain in mind; they did it out of sheer good conscience. And in the end, they're shown on top of Pride Rock; they go from being lowly outcasts to equals of the king! They are truly an example of what friendship and sacrifices are about. I can say Nala's only reason for existence was to be Simba's love interest.
[quote="Regulus"]["Timon doesn't look after anyone but himself, and he's not afraid to admit it. He doesn't really care about anyone or anything; that was what allowed him to adopt the philosophy of Hakuna Matata to begin with."][/quote]
Even if you assume Timon didn't look after anyone but himself in the beginning of TLK 1 & 1/2, the examples I give of Timon looking after others besides himself and caring about others definitely disprove the idea that that's true for the current Timon (and you used present-tense verbs to describe him).

The philosophy of Hakuna Matata isn't necessarily something selfish! Pumbaa and Rafiki both repeated it to Timon. Are Pumbaa and Rafiki selfish?

I think you've got Timon in an almost non-falsifiable trap of selfishness when you say he only helps others because he gets something out of it, and that when he clearly does help others without the intention of getting something out of it, it is a result of a change in character. How can any of the selfless things Timon does be recognized as such when this unfalsifiable logic is applied? In the end, don't we all get something out of it when we help others, whether that's our reason for helping them or not? For one example, people keep each other company for the mutual benefits of companionship. Take Nuka's death in TLK 2: SP for another example. His dying words (in the deleted scene) were "Well, at least I got your attention." Nuka was seeking his mother's approval/attention, and this is what he got. So just because Timon sometimes does seem to get something out of it for helping others, we can't just say this is always his intention, and even if it is, it isn't necessarily something bad.
[quote="Regulus"]["He didn't rescue Simba. He kept Simba away from his home, and prevented the cub from fulfilling his place in life. Timon used Simba for his own protection, and that was it."][/quote]
Timon, at the very least, didn't intentionally prevent the cub from fulfilling his place in life. Timon: "Let me get this straight. You're the king? And you never told us?" Timon didn't even know Simba's history. That's why he needed Nala's explanations. And after receiving them, he was initially against the idea of letting Simba return/helping him do so, but he had his reasons. He was confused by Simba's sudden "hunky-dory" attitude towards Nala, because Nala had tried to kill Pumbaa, and he thought this meant Simba cared more for Nala than his long-time friends, giving up their hard-earned paradise.
[quote="Regulus"]["Mostly, that's because part of me wonders why he changed. I have little doubt that he decided to help Simba, simply because he realized what was in it for him."][/quote]
The quote below does seem to suggest strongly that Timon only saves Simba for the benefit of protection he will provide (and what Timon says when he meets Pumbaa in TLK 1 & 1/2 seems to suggest the same).

"A - huh! That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. Maybe he'll b-... Hey, I got it! What if he's on our side? You know, having a lion around might not be such a bad idea."

But still I don't think he only helped Simba (and Pumbaa) for his own personal gain. He was being realistic about the lion eating "guys like [them]", so I don't think it's bad that it took the idea of the lion siding with them, rather than against them, to get Timon to agree to save him.

While it does seem there is little doubt that Timon only befriends Pumbaa and Simba for his own personal gain, we don't know every factor that was involved in Timon's decision to associate with Pumbaa and Simba. We only have what he said out loud.

Keep these two points in mind:

.Timon prevents Pumbaa from departing despite the fact that he's already found what he's sure is his dream home. (So if Timon's only use for Pumbaa was to help him find his dream home, why didn't he just let Pumbaa leave while he had the chance?) "Wait a minute, now wait-wa-wait. There's no law that says you have to go. I mean, if you want— "

.Timon uses the first-person pronoun our to describe what he originally called my dream home. "Chin up, Pumbaa! {brushes a branch aside} Whoa! Our dream home's around here somewhere."

I don't think the point of TLK 1 & 1/2 was to show Timon becoming un-selfish; I think it was just so how Timon finding contentment. He had a dilemma; he cared about doing right and not burdening others and sticking with his friends, but he just couldn't help his deficiency in meerkat skills, so he had to leave. I think Timon's care shows when he has an emotional break-down in the theater, because even though he often tries to be bold, he really has to relent to his weaknesses, but he cares deeply about his friend Pumbaa, which encourages him to continue on instead of giving up (which he has a tendency to do). The funny part is, the present Timon of the theater still has his pride problems (he's so prideful about picking his nose that he lies and desperately tries to hide the evidence of it) and problems with taking credit for Pumbaa's ideas, so I think these are just funny qualities Timon has--it's almost like he just can't help it.

When TLK 1 was made, obviously TLK 1 & 1/2 was unforeseen, so even though the end of TLK 1 & 1/2 does coincide with the end of TLK 1, I contend that the un-selfish things Timon does should count towards his un-selfishness. It's not like the film's creators intended for a change to be seen in Timon in TLK 1. What about when he gets right in harms (Nala's) way to try to dislodge Pumbaa from the tree root? Or how he's willing to act as live bait for Simba? Or when he says, "Well, Simba, if it's important to you, {bows} we're with you to the end."

But let me point out, when Timon does notice that he's been inconsiderate of others, he apologizes, and he does take notice of others' wants.

.When Pumbaa is dancing and accidentally bumps in Timon, Timon says "Hey! How can you dance at a time like this? I'm dyin' here! {realizes he's gone a bit too far, he lets go and backs off} Ooh. Sorry about that, pal." (I think this shows that any time Timon does see he's been mean to his friend, he apologizes.)

.Timon: Aw, why not? One more run won't change our lives! (Timon feels sorry for Pumbaa, who is dissapointed that Timon refuses to have "one more round" (because of the injuries the "rounds" cause), so he agrees to have another round (despite the injuries the round is likely to cause)).

Why do I think Timon cares about doing right? Well, he cares about staying true to his own words "friends stick together to the end;" it's just that he and Pumbaa disagree on who the phrase favors (Simba and Pumbaa or Timon?) when Simba decides to return and Pumbaa decides to join him. In the meantime (before Rafiki helps him see), Timon tries to convince himself that he's doing right.
[quote="Regulus"]"It's not that he can't help it, he just doesn't try."[/quote]
We can't just automatically dismiss the notion that Timon was incapable of succeeding no matter how hard he tried to function within his colony. This notion is supported by the other meerkats' (especially Uncle Max's) attitudes towards Ma's proposals of Timon becoming sentry and re-joining the digging team. How they all walked out when Timon tried to ease the blame shows that everyone thought the idea of Timon fitting in was truly hopeless. And even though Ma is determined to find a way for Timon to fit in, continually coming up with ideas to suit him, she finally concedes to Timon that his place is not in the colony, but somewhere else, and that he truly is not meant to fit in.

The fact that Timon kept attempting to fit in despite his high pride levels shows me that he really did want to succeed. From what the other meerkats say, we can tell Timon had a very bad reputation for making mistakes. And we can tell that Timon is very embarrassed whenever he causes a catastrophe. Why would Timon be willing to risk such embarrassment?

I guess a person's inability to fit in and do his job in society can be seen as selfish, lazy, and narcissistic, but I don't really see it that way. I personally can relate to Timon because I've had my own share of difficulty finishing my work.

Maybe Timon didn't think he was above the other meerkats; the others were not discontent with their living and working conditions, but Timon was. So it's not like all the meerkats were discontent but Timon "thought he deserved better."

I think Timon's decision to leave the colony was actually selfless, because he did have hesitation in his voice when he departed with his mother, reassuring her that he'd be okay. Timon has a way of seeming more confident and composed than he actually is, and this shows when his bold narration suddenly changes to a scene of him bawling over his mother. Deep inside, he really misses her. He was very distressed by leaving. He didn't know which way to go or what he was doing, even though he said he put his past behind him and never looked back. Why would a selfish person subject himself to such an unpleasant situation on purpose?
[quote="Regulus"]Simply put, he has no understanding of what it means to be responsible.[/quote]
The fact that Rafiki helped Timon achieve his goal of Hakuna Matata/finding a dream home really shows me that Timon's goal was not selfish, because Rafiki has a reputation for being wise and helping people with un-selfish goals. He was the one to set up Simba's encounter with Mufasa's ghost which lead to Simba's return.

Way before the end of TLK 1 & 1/2, Timon and Pumbaa fall down the gorge waterfall, and when they get to shore, they have a very honest dialogue exchange and the Timon of the present (in the theater) sobs while he relives the moment. This really shows me that he really cares.

This whole big chunk of dialogue is indisputable!
^I just made that image from a screen-shot of http://www.lionking.org 's webpage.

A tendency to give up, to desire a commitment-free lifestyle, doesn't necessarily make a person bad, even though it's not exactly a good quality. Even though Timon did have trouble trying and facing responsibility, he did have a sense of the consequences of this, and when he tells Pumbaa to "go home" because he's already weighed him down too much, Timon's consciousness and measurement of his burdening of others really shows. So I think this can be considered as part of Timon's selfless reason for leaving--because he doesn't want to burden others with his inability to work.

Timon was shown behaving very un-selfishly during his parenthood of Simba. Timon does the following in the parenthood scene 1) Takes Simba to 'go' when Simba wakes him up in the middle of the night 2) Takes Simba to quench his thirst when Simba again wakes him up in the middle of the night, despite the fact that this means Simba will be up bother Timon again. 3) Follows after Simba as he heads for a waterfall, saying, "Hang on, Simba! I'll save you!" 4) Takes Simba to 'go' again. 5) Allows Simba to play with him like a toy. 6) Along with Pumbaa, allows Simba to sleep with them because of his bad dream.
[quote="Regulus"]"He thinks he can break out into a song about his love for himself and his dreams of the future, while he's on sentry duty.[/quote]
Timon is no more guilty for breaking out into song than is Simba; just as Timon broke out into song when he was supposed to be on sentry duty, Simba broke out into song when he was supposed to be going to the water hole. They both were endangering others with failure to be doing what others expected them to be doing, but Simba was doing it intentionally, while Timon just accidentally fell victim to day-dreaming.
[quote="Regulus"]"After all, Mufasa was talking to Simba, when he was under Timon's influence."[/quote]
Actually, Simba was under Scar's influence. Scar told him to run far away and never return, and Simba retained the feelings of guilt from Scar's blame. Timon did have resentment for resposibility, but I think even you'd agree that Timon would love to associate with Simba in a position of power, so if Timon had known that Simba was rightfully a king, he'd have been all for Simba returning.

I agree TheLionPrince's post on this page's perspective of Timon. He's kind of resistant to change and feels betrayed when Simba suddenly seems to ditch him and Pumbaa for Nala. I always related to Timon during the Can You Feel the Love Tonight scene. How can Simba suddenly be "okay with it" after Nala tries to kill Pumbaa and Timon risks his life trying to save him? Simba doesn't explain enought to Timon; Timon didn't even know that Simba was king! I think Timon and Pumbaa deserved better explanations from Nala and Simba.

[Carl]

^ Actually, I think you and Regulus both are sort of right. Timon's not all selfish, but he's not all selfless either. You both make good points, and you both have a few flimsy points. It all comes down to perception in the end, because no one can know for sure what was in Timon's head, so in the end, it's just how he seemed to each person.

To me, he was very selfish for saving Simba and joining up with Pumbaa. He did both of those things to look out for himself. But at the same time, he did come to care for them both and he did act selflessly towards both of them at times too, like AnnaM pointed out. I think both of you put him on an extreme when he's really in a gray area in between selfish and selfless.

[EdtheHyena]

I liked him until LK 1/5. He was a huge jerk at the end of that movie (well, he eventually saw the error of his ways) but I was really disgusted with him. Hell, even PUMBAA gave him a "what da hell?!"

On the other hand, I largely enjoy him as a side character in the other movies and adore him in the TV series. But he's far from perfect in my mind, which I don't mind, since the franchise has three comic relief side characters who I feel are in almost every way.

[EdtheHyena]

[quote]

I think Timon's decision to leave the colony was actually selfless, because he did have hesitation in his voice when he departed with his mother, reassuring her that he'd be okay. Timon has a way of seeming more confident and composed than he actually is, and this shows when his bold narration suddenly changes to a scene of him bawling over his mother. Deep inside, he really misses her. [/quote]


Uh...no. Him BAWLING "MAAHMEE!!" was, I believe, shown as a severe and humorous contrast to the very somber scene of him leaving his colony that the TV series portrayed (which it did far superior, I strongly believe)

For reference, here's the original scene from 1996/97 in the TV series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1J3wpzwHPQ

It's at about 9:50.

And the second version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tei_2nVr1k

At about 3:05

It goes to show how much they changed Timon for the worse for the third movie, although to those who believe it was for the better, I respect your opinions.

One more question:


[quote]
1) Takes Simba to 'go' when Simba wakes him up in the middle of the night [/quote]

Will someone PLEASE explain that to me?????!!

[Carl]

[quote]It goes to show how much they changed Timon for the worse for the third movie, although to those who believe it was for the better, I respect your opinions.[/quote]

Most people don't like the series as a basis because it incorporates human elements and isn't really canon. After all, why would a meerkat colony have taxis, road signs, book stores and all those other things? Yeah, it's not real and they can do whatever they want, but in the movies there was none of that, so why should it make sense to include that stuff in the canon-verse, especially when it wasn't created by the same people who worked on the movies.

That aside, I think it's more noble for him leave on his own accord like in the movie 1.5 than to be kicked out on account of messing up like he did in the show with the snake. I mean, in the series he is shown to have severely messed up, far worse than in the movie. The scene where he's crying "mommy" is simply for comedic purposes, and I doubt the show had any relevance in their decision of how to handle that scene- after all lots of people have not seen the series. And besides, isn't it better to leave of one's own accord and have the ability to return, than to be kicked out because your friend convinced you to ditch work? I mean seems his character is worse in the series for that reason to me. He should have stayed on duty. He wouldn't have been able to stop that snake, but still, he wouldn't have been banished if he hadn't left his post.

[EdtheHyena]

[quote="Julie Skywalker"][quote]It goes to show how much they changed Timon for the worse for the third movie, although to those who believe it was for the better, I respect your opinions.[/quote]

[quote] Most people don't like the series as a basis because it incorporates human elements and isn't really canon.

[/quote]

Whether it's canon or not is a matter of opinion.



[quote]After all, why would a meerkat colony have taxis, road signs, book stores and all those other things? Yeah, it's not real and they can do whatever they want, but in the movies there was none of that, so why should it make sense to include that stuff in the canon-verse, especially when it wasn't created by the same people who worked on the movies.[/quote]

The characters actually do hint they are fairly sophisticated. Zazu sings a few songs an animal wouldn't know, and Timon knows the concept of "dressing in drag".

[quote]
That aside, I think it's more noble for him leave on his own accord like in the movie 1.5 than to be kicked out on account of messing up like he did in the show with the snake. I mean, in the series he is shown to have severely messed up, far worse than in the movie.
The scene where he's crying "mommy" is simply for comedic purposes, and I doubt the show had any relevance in their decision of how to handle that scene- after all lots of people have not seen the series. And besides, isn't it better to leave of one's own accord and have the ability to return, than to be kicked out because your friend convinced you to ditch work? I mean seems his character is worse in the series for that reason to me. He should have stayed on duty. He wouldn't have been able to stop that snake, but still, he wouldn't have been banished if he hadn't left his post.[/quote][/quote]

But you actually feel sorry for him on the show, whereas in the movie you don't feel an ounce of sympathy. I think Timon is worse in the movie simply because of what a b*tch he was towards the end. I can't believe no one ever brings that up. It wasn't understandable, it wasn't justifiable.

Also, the Timon of the movie should have stayed on duty too.

And no one answered my last question.