A review of TLK mentioning a big problem.

[Flowertall]

There`s a guy called Douglas Walker who makes a living making fun of bad movies, who during december reviewed most of the Disney classics, in a serious way. He reviewed TLK too, and he thinks it`s a little overrated, because he`s mentioning what he thinks is a BIG problem. Check out the review and see if you concur.

Here it is: http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/specials/33693-disneycember-part-11 Beware of one drop of the f-bomb.

As for me, I have to agree a little with the problem he mentions. Actually, at first I didn`t want to see his review, because I love this movie so much I don`t wanna hear anything bad about it, I just wanna love it.

So yeah, I have to go along with the issue he brings up. What I do not agree with, is how he`s mentioning Scar becomes dull after he seizes power. He mentions that more specifically when he`s listing his favorite Disney villains in a different review. He thinks Scar is smart and interesting at first when he wants to be king, but then becomes a whining primadonna when he has the power. He then shows a clip of "I`m the king, I can do whatever I want" and afterwards says: "No out out, I need to apply more mascara", just to show how whiny Scar is. Yeah, true, but I don`t see how he changes. He`s whining all the time, and he sure acts like a primadonna when he says "I`m surrounded by idiots". Granted, Scar is whiny, but I don`t see the character change.

Also the songs. Not that fond of Hakuna Matata, but "I Just can`t wait" is one of my all time favorite melodies. The singing is so so, but it`s that melody that conveys such childish joy and rambunctiousness like nothing I`ve ever heard. "Can you feel", love it, though Elton John`s version is the best.

[Noah]

Yeah, I'd been looking forward to Doug Walker talking about the Lion King when he first talked about his Disneycember special. I got disappointed when he said he didn't like it that much, but he still called it more of a good movie, than a bad one. That's okay in my book. One thing to remember however is that this wasn't a review. Doug was just giving his personal opinions on the film.

The issue that he said was a "BIG" problem was when the movie doesn't seem to support Simba when the he takes responsibility for his father's death. He argues that, according to the movie's logic, if Simba did do it, he should die, because the lionesses didn't try to intervene. I disagree on the fact that Scar was running the show right before Simba's leap. Scar was even sorta putting words in Simba's mouth, so I don't think the movie was in complete control. I realize this is somewhat confusing but you have to be a cinephile to know what I mean.

As for Scar being a bad villian in the second half, that isn't a farfetched thing to say. His best moments do happen before he takes control. Remember this is just Doug's personal views. He is probably dissappointed that Scar didn't live up to being a good king. After all, he is the best villian ever, shouldn't he also be the best ruler?

As for Hakuna Matata, it's one of those songs that either you like or you don't like. Everyone in the summer of 1994 was apparently humming this tune. Doug would have had to hear it a lot during his childhood. Don't think he hates all the songs. Circle of Life and Be Prepared are two songs he mentioned he really enjoyed.

[Azerane]

Ahh yes, that msg in TLK was discussed just last week on Lea, I do get what he's saying, but at the same time there's additional circumstances...

The main message of the movie is being true to yourself, and yes, facing those fears, rather than running away from them. I think the reason the lionesses didn't support Simba straight away, is after all, they only discovered he was still alive a few minutes before, and had thought he had died with Mufasa. To have him suddenly return to confront Scar, and have Scar accuse him in front of everyone of killing Mufasa, it would have been a lot to take in. I think the main argument for if they believed it would be the fact that Simba had run away and why would he have run away if he wasn't guilty? Sarabi is clearly shocked and upset, but I think given a chance to actually tell what happened, that they all would have believed him, but who knows what Scar had told them about the Stampede and how it had happened.

No, there wasn't a congratulations waiting for Simba when he faced his fears and what he thought he had done wrong, but if you've done something wrong, of course no one is going to praise you, but at least you've done the right thing by owning up, and Simba does get his reward, by coming back, he forces a confession out of Scar and he manages to reclaim the Pridelands that are rightfully his, that seems like a pretty good congratulations to me. So if you face your fears and wrongdoings, you will end up with the good things you deserve. Or something like that

[Regulus]

[quote="Noahcs"]The issue that he said was a "BIG" problem was when the movie doesn't seem to support Simba when the he takes responsibility for his father's death.[/quote]

And he's got a point, too. Not only is it a moral flaw within the story, but it's a logical flaw as well. The lionesses were told that Simba and Mufasa both died in the stampede. Then Simba shows up and tells them they're wrong. That's a lot of conflicting information, and should set off a WTF response more than anything. But that's not what happens.

If I were to rewrite the ending, this is what would happen:
-Simba admits Mufasa's death is his fault
-The lionesses question how that's possible
-Scar is then exposed as the liar he is
-Scar and the hyenas fight against Simba and the lionesses
-The rest of the ending would be the same

[Noah]

[quote="Regulus"]The lionesses were told that Simba and Mufasa both died in the stampede.[/quote]
How do we know they were told this? Didn't Scar say that he thought Simba and Mufasa were dead? Regardless, wouldn't the lionesses think that "Scar got mixed up in the chaos" versus "Scar killed his brother"?

[quote="Regulus"]
If I were to rewrite the ending, this is what would happen:
-Simba admits Mufasa's death is his fault
-The lionesses question how that's possible
-Scar is then exposed as the liar he is
-Scar and the hyenas fight against Simba and the lionesses
-The rest of the ending would be the same[/quote]
Keep in mind that the lionesses were under a lot of stress with the current situation they were in. The lack of food and constant threat of the hyenas would have made their minds not function properly. Throw in the fact that Simba, the cub they always thought was dead, turning out to be alive, and you have a lot of information to process. In a perfect world, they should have logically come to that conclusion, but people don't act logically in times of great stress. Let me give you a quick real life example: ABC News did an experiment where trained gun owners were given (what they thought were) real guns in a college classroom and then they had a shooter come in and none of the people who had guns on them acted logically. They didn't do what they should have done because of the stress of the situation.

[DGFone]

I remember that little review. I have to disagree with Walker there. He says that if Simba did in fact kill his father, then he would lose all support from the lionesses. What he forgot to mention is that while Simba was away, life was hell for the pride. So imagine that you are a Pridelander (and the stampede was really Simba's fault). Simba ran off, but you think he died. Because of the 'death' you life becomes a living hell under the rule of Scar. Simba later comes back, wanting to set things straight.

But you know what? Simba is cause of your hell! Sure, he might want to fix things now, but the does owe you a few years of rotten life. He also owes Nala a childhood, and Sarabi a husband. And he also admits that it was all his fault.

As much good as his intentions are now, I will hesitate siding with him right away. Maybe I will once I think things over, but no impulsive siding. He might be better than Scar. Just maybe. But it will be mutual support only.

And if you look at Sarabi's expression, you can clearly tell that she doesn't think that Simba is responsible.

So Walker was correct about the problem, but it's not as big as he thinks it is.

[Regulus]

[quote="Noahcs"][quote="Regulus"]The lionesses were told that Simba and Mufasa both died in the stampede.[/quote]
How do we know they were told this?[/quote]

Nala: Wait till everybody finds out you've been here all this time! And your mother... what will she think?
Simba: {Misunderstanding} She doesn't have to know. Nobody has to know.
Nala: Well, of course they do. Everyone thinks you're dead.
Simba: They do?
Nala: Yeah. Scar told us about the stampede.
Simba: He did? Well... {beginning to see something} what else did he tell you?
Nala: What else matters? You're alive. and that means... you're the king.

^ That is why I assume the lionesses were told that Simba and Mufasa died in a stampede.

[quote="Noahcs"]Didn't Scar say that he thought Simba and Mufasa were dead?[/quote]

Nope.

Scar: Mufasa's death was a terrible tragedy; but to lose Simba, who had barely begun to live...

There was never any doubt that Simba was dead, despite a lack of proof.

[quote="Noahcs"]Regardless, wouldn't the lionesses think that "Scar got mixed up in the chaos" versus "Scar killed his brother"?[/quote]

I don't know. But the evidence is quite substantial at this point, even from the perspective of the lionesses. I mean, consider this:
-Scar didn't come to Simba's presentation.
-Scar just happened to supposedly find Simba and Mufasa dead after a stampede, and declared himself as king.
-Keep in mind that before this, Scar wasn't really in the pride. He was closer to the hyenas than to the other lions.
-Scar becomes a terrible king who abuses his power.
-And then we find out that Simba is actually alive.
-Not only is he alive, but Scar seems to know that Mufasa's death is Simba's fault.

At this point, I would think "if he knew that, why didn't he tell us to begin with? What else has he been lying about?"

And even then, let's not forget the fact that when Mufasa died, Simba was just a cub. How could a cub kill his father?

Additionally, even if Simba did kill his father, you can't prove that it was intentional. What motivation would Simba have had for killing his dad? There isn't one.

Heck, what about Zazu, he got smacked around when he said he was going to get help during the stampede. Shouldn't that itself be enough for him to say something during the final scene?

[quote="Noahcs"]Keep in mind that the lionesses were under a lot of stress with the current situation they were in. The lack of food and constant threat of the hyenas would have made their minds not function properly. Throw in the fact that Simba, the cub they always thought was dead, turning out to be alive, and you have a lot of information to process. In a perfect world, they should have logically come to that conclusion, but people don't act logically in times of great stress. Let me give you a quick real life example: ABC News did an experiment where trained gun owners were given (what they thought were) real guns in a college classroom and then they had a shooter come in and none of the people who had guns on them acted logically. They didn't do what they should have done because of the stress of the situation.[/quote]

This is true. But I still find it hard to believe that none of them at least gave Simba two minutes to explain the story from his point of view, before they just let Scar run him off Priderock.

[KentuckyWildcat]

I have to disagree with him that the final fight scene undermines the movie's message. Scar almost winning is probably more for dramatic effect than to say that Simba "deserves" to die until he finds out he didn't kill his father. As for him not getting any support initially,that could actually strengthen the message in a way. The whole point was that facing the past is the right thing to do even when it isn't the easy thing to do, so I don't see the problem.

On the other hand, I do have to agree with him to an extent about Scar. During the first part of the movie, he seems really cunning and devious. After he becomes king, you would think that he would be able to subtly manipulate others in a self-serving way like he had been doing up to that point, but instead he turns into a suicidal/homicidal maniac who doesn't care if he kills the pride and dies with them. In my opinion, this weakens him as a villain, but the good far outweighs the bad in the film.

[cleargreenwater]

I can understand the logic of the argument, but I feel you have to reflect very hard on the end of the movie to make it. Truth is, while watching the movie I have always been so caught up in the over-arching theme of taking responsibility for actions that in as many times as I have ever watched it, such an interpretation of things never once *actually* occurred. I don't know how much of a fatal movie flaw it can be if it isn't apparent to viewers. The idea never effected my viewing of the movie and don't know how aggregious it can be considered if people have gone until this review to even think of it.

You want a real moral-logic fail in animated films, I think "All Dogs Go To Heaven" is tops. It's OK to use someone as long as you're almost dead and pitting yourself against someone alive that's doing the same thing?

Mind-coins, here take them.

[FlipMode]

It is kind of true what he said, but remember the characters are lions not humans.
But also they are in shock, they JUST found out Simba killed his father, after he returned from a long hiatus....