Did Scar and the hyenas cause the destruction of the Pridelands?

[DGFone]

[quote="Regulus"]
[quote="Tora"]Well considering that the Hyenas were allowed to come into the Pride Lands and everything basically died you can see they had no respect for the law or order.[/quote]

This is a logical fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

[/quote]

You do know that it's official cannon that by allowing the hyenas in, Scar directly lead to the troubles in the Pride Lands, right? To sum it up: Scar invites his pals in. These pals invite their pals. Now the predator population has increased in a way that can be represented by the heavyside function: a very sudden, near instantaneous jump.

Unlike your local carrot shop, prey animals want to live, and can do something about it. So just as the demand for prey animal jumped, the population of available prey began a very steep decline: over-hunting of the herds as well as the rest of the herds leaving the Pride Lands in fear of their lives.

And if you know anything about ecosystem biology, then you should know that something as drastic as the entire herbivore population fleeing will cause severe damage to the local plant life, as the gasses will grow uncontrollably and effectively starve themselves to death as they deplete available nutrients faster than they can be replenished. Add a drought, and you have an ecological disaster. Heck, even without the drought there was going to be an ecological disaster.

So was Mufasa bad in banishing all hyenas? Perhaps. But Scar was much worse in letting them in without any checks in place to control their population, not to mention his severe favoritism towards said hyenas, only making the problem worse.

It's not a logical fallacy to say that letting the hyenas caused the devastation, because when you actually connect the dots, you will see that sometimes, like in this case, Action A directly leads to Action B.

So before you pull off an insulting move as to call an argument a "logical fallacy", explain how it won't work. Because to say "no, you're wrong!" without any backing evidence... is rather stupid and mean.

Now as for is Simba better than Mufasa? I will say that while Simba made plenty of mistakes, he had to learn from the very rock bottom how to be a king without an actual king to help him. Combined with the obstacles he had to overcome - returning the Pride Lands to their pre-drought state, for example - I will give him my vote. He at least demonstrated that he can learn from his mistakes, a trait that we didn't see Mufasa do.

[Regulus]

It is a logical fallacy because the only cause for a complete lack of plant life as shown in the movie is a drought. Plant life evolved long before animals so no, the ecosystem will not die out without herbivores.

This is the energy pyramid:



If you'll notice, producers (plants) are at the bottom. All they need to survive is sunlight and water. The fact that the vegetation did not survive means that there was not enough sunlight and/or water, which are two elements that are entirely independent of Scar's decisions as king.

Plant life is needed to sustain herbivores, and herbivores are needed to sustain carnivores, but herbivores and carnivores are NOT needed to sustain producers.

Considering this, it is actually more likely that a drought caused the plant life to die out, and that caused the herds to leave, and that was about to cause the downfall of the kingdom.

I'm not saying Scar was the better king, as he clearly left his pride out to dry at the very end. What I was saying is that the reason why he was so dead set in his beliefs was because of what he was working against: Mufasa.

[DGFone]

[quote="Regulus"]It is a logical fallacy because the only cause for a complete lack of plant life as shown in the movie is a drought. Plant life evolved long before animals so no, the ecosystem will not die out without herbivores.

If you'll notice, producers (plants) are at the bottom. All they need to survive is sunlight and water. The fact that the vegetation did not survive means that there was not enough sunlight and/or water, which are two elements that are entirely independent of Scar's decisions as king.

Plant life is needed to sustain herbivores, and herbivores are needed to sustain carnivores, but herbivores and carnivores are NOT needed to sustain producers.

Considering this, it is actually more likely that a drought caused the plant life to die out, and that caused the herds to leave, and that was about to cause the downfall of the kingdom.

I'm not saying Scar was the better king, as he clearly left his pride out to dry at the very end. What I was saying is that the reason why he was so dead set in his beliefs was because of what he was working against: Mufasa.[/quote]

The plat life that evolved before animal life is completely different than today's plat life. Today's plants need a bit more than just "sunlight and water" to live. Why do you think there are carnivorous plants, as well as quite a few cannibalistic ("eating" other plants) plants out there? They need nutrients as well, and in places such as rain forests, the nutrients are in such high demand that you get the weirs and scary plants.

Take the savanna though, and remove all life that eats grass. For a short period, the grass will grow rapidly, growing without getting eaten up. Then the nutrients in the ground run out... and the grass has no food. This is what I mean by "the grass will starve itself to death". There's a carrying capacity for the grass in the ground nutrients, but no natural caps for the grass to stop growing. It will grow until there will be nothing left.

Which also: insects that will eat grass, without intermediate insectivores to eat them (animals that will run away or get eaten as well. Think Timon and Pumbaa, although in RL warthogs eat grass). Without these animals around, whatever grass will survive the nutrient wars will get eaten up by insects that won't be eaten themselves. So either way, the end is clear = no grass. Caused by the exodus of most animals in the Pride Lands, due to Scar's ruling policies.

Drought or not, Scar is directly responsible for quite a lot of ecological devastation.

[Regulus]

The point is, the overpopulation of the hyenas coinciding with the destruction of the ecosystem only suggests that it was their fault. It is still a flawed statement to declare it as a fact, because this is not a controlled experiment.

Many other things changed during that same time, most notably the lack of water. But, in addition, there are an infinite number of other possible causes. There may have been a plague, or the land could have burned in a fire. We do not know for sure what the true cause is, aside from any official word given by the writers.

Also, you have to consider that the hyenas were there during Mufasa's reign as well. They were not allowed to live in the pridelands, but they still existed, and they ate what they could find, or what Scar would feed them. That burden on the ecosystem was still in place. And, obviously, as we all know, the hyenas weren't even living large during Scar's reign, so it's not like that burden even increased.

[DGFone]

[quote="Regulus"]The point is, the overpopulation of the hyenas coinciding with the destruction of the ecosystem only suggests that it was their fault. It is still a flawed statement to declare it as a fact, because this is not a controlled experiment.

Many other things changed during that same time, most notably the lack of water. But, in addition, there are an infinite number of other possible causes. There may have been a plague, or the land could have burned in a fire. We do not know for sure what the true cause is, aside from any official word given by the writers.

Also, you have to consider that the hyenas were there during Mufasa's reign as well. They were not allowed to live in the pridelands, but they still existed, and they ate what they could find, or what Scar would feed them. That burden on the ecosystem was still in place. And, obviously, as we all know, the hyenas weren't even living large during Scar's reign, so it's not like that burden even increased.[/quote]

Hyenas in the Pride Lands under Mufasa's reign is only a few intruders at a time. To say that you can compare the impact of the hyenas in Mufasa's reign compared to after Scar allowed them in is silly: you're talking about roughly 20 at a time (to be VERY generous) compared to several hundred. Remember that Zazu needed help to know when there are hyenas in the Pride Lands. Now do you think he will need help spotting oh, I dunno, several hundred hyenas?

You're also forgetting that in the movie itself, you clearly see that during Mufasa's reign, the hyena home was the Elephant Graveyard - explicitly stated to be outside of the Pride Lands. Another important scene in the movie? Scar takes the throne and his first command as King? Allow the hyenas in. Que hyena mob entering the Pride Lands. So no, contrary to what you just said, Scar was completely responsible for heaviside-ingly increasing the predator demand on the Pride Lands. Que everyone else fleeing for their lives.

[quote="Regulus"] There may have been a plague[/quote]

To quote Nala: "Simba, if you don't return, everyone's going to starve to death!"

Note how she didn't say that anyone has died yet. Only that unless a source of food is found (in this case, Simba returning and restoring order), the real troubles will only begin.

Combined with the large numbers of hyenas and a fairly complete looking lion pride, you can scratch out plague as a source of trouble. The land was effected, but apart from a lack of food, the animals who wanted/ were forced to stay looked quite fine instead of sick and dying. Not to mention that plague tends to thin numbers down and create a sea of paranoia, something lacking in the movie.

[quote="Regulus"]We do not know for sure what the true cause is, aside from any official word given by the writers.[/quote]

Considering the Word of God explicitly stated Scar and the hyenas are at fault, I still don't see what you are trying to argue against. I can show you how to directly connect A and B, and all you can do is vaguely wave your hands and claim that it might be "plague". Got any other easily debunked ideas as to why the hyenas and Scar for some reason are not directly involved in the Pride Lands troubles?

[Regulus]

[quote="DGFone"]Hyenas in the Pride Lands under Mufasa's reign is only a few intruders at a time. To say that you can compare the impact of the hyenas in Mufasa's reign compared to after Scar allowed them in is silly: you're talking about roughly 20 at a time (to be VERY generous) compared to several hundred. Remember that Zazu needed help to know when there are hyenas in the Pride Lands. Now do you think he will need help spotting oh, I dunno, several hundred hyenas?[/quote]

Unless the 80 additional hyenas at the end of the movie just spawned out of nowhere, they were always there, and as such, they had to be eating something.

[quote]You're also forgetting that in the movie itself, you clearly see that during Mufasa's reign, the hyena home was the Elephant Graveyard - explicitly stated to be outside of the Pride Lands.[/quote]

But there is no food in the Elephant graveyard, now is there? But, obviously, they had to eat something or they would have starved. So they go into the Pridelands (or elsewhere) to eat.

[quote]Another important scene in the movie? Scar takes the throne and his first command as King? Allow the hyenas in. Que hyena mob entering the Pride Lands. So no, contrary to what you just said, Scar was completely responsible for heaviside-ingly increasing the predator demand on the Pride Lands. Que everyone else fleeing for their lives.[/quote]

The hyenas were brought into the Pridelands so that he could keep control over the lionesses. They still had to eat before that, and they continued to eat just as little after that.

[quote]
To quote Nala: "Simba, if you don't return, everyone's going to starve to death!"

Note how she didn't say that anyone has died yet. Only that unless a source of food is found (in this case, Simba returning and restoring order), the real troubles will only begin.[/quote]

The actual line is: "Simba, he let the hyenas take over the Pride Lands. [...] Everything's destroyed. There's no food. No water. Simba, if you don't do something soon, everyone will starve."

These are two different statements. She did not say "the hyenas destroyed the Pridelands." She said they took over, and that there's no food or water.

[quote]Combined with the large numbers of hyenas and a fairly complete looking lion pride, you can scratch out plague as a source of trouble. The land was effected, but apart from a lack of food, the animals who wanted/ were forced to stay looked quite fine instead of sick and dying. Not to mention that plague tends to thin numbers down and create a sea of paranoia, something lacking in the movie.[/quote]

I didn't specify what the plague affected. I was thinking of a disease that infected and killed the plant life, or perhaps even the herds.

[quote]Considering the Word of God explicitly stated Scar and the hyenas are at fault, I still don't see what you are trying to argue against.[/quote]

Source?

[quote]Got any other easily debunked ideas as to why the hyenas and Scar for some reason are not directly involved in the Pride Lands troubles? [/quote]



Last time I checked, hyenas are not capable of adjusting the color of the ambient light of their environments.

The destruction of the Pridelands was done for artistic affect, to symbolize Scar's terrible reign. I do not, however, believe that it was Scar's fault.

I mean, look at that. Have you ever seen anything like that in real life, that was caused only by an overpopulation of predators? I sure haven't.

It's the same idea as the fire during the battle, and the rain after the battle. Did Simba's confrontation with Scar cause the lightning strike, and thus the fire? No. It's just there because, hey, we need to make this scene look as epic as possible.

When Scar died, did that bring about the rain? No. The rain is just a symbolic representation of Simba's return, washing away the death and a new life being brought in.

On a similar note, would an ecosystem really recover fully in the amount of time before the cub is presented? In real life, that takes dozens of years, so the answer is no. It's all just symbolism.

[DGFone]

[quote="Regulus"]
Unless the 80 additional hyenas at the end of the movie just spawned out of nowhere, they were always there, and as such, they had to be eating something.[/quote]

Excuse me? Are you really saying that seeing a bunch of hyenas in the Pride Lands in the end of the movie, after Scar let them in somehow means that this same number of hyenas were in the Pride Lands as well, during Mufasa's reign? This I have to see you explain yourself. What you just said is that Action A directly lead to B, so therefore B happened before A. Things don't work that way.

[quote="Regulus"]
But there is no food in the Elephant graveyard, now is there? But, obviously, they had to eat something or they would have starved. So they go into the Pridelands (or elsewhere) to eat.[/quote]

Who said they had to get their food from the Pride Lands? Considering Mufasa's harsh anti-hyena stance, they would be fools to try and eat everything they can from the Pride Lands. Remember: all you knows is that there is little food in the graveyard, but you don't know what's on the other three sides. The world doesn't end at the elephant graveyard, so it's just silly to say that the Pride Lands are the only food source around. Not enough food for sure, but clearly enough to keep hyenas from entering the Pride Lands in force and simply overthrow the lion pride through sheer numbers.

[quote="Regulus"]
The hyenas were brought into the Pridelands so that he could keep control over the lionesses. They still had to eat before that, and they continued to eat just as little after that.[/quote]

Proof? Scar brought the hyenas in because of the debt he owed them for helping him. Remember "Be Prepared"?

What I saw in the movie was the hyenas complaining about the lack of food in the graveyard, and only starting to complain about food well into the destruction of the Pride Lands. Remember them complaining about no dinner? Listen to how they talk: it's the first time since they entered the Pride Lands that they didn't have something to eat when they wanted it.

Scar not only lead the hyenas in, but for quite some time, they ate very well too. The hyenas came, and demand for meet exploded. Try to tell me that won't cause disaster.

[quote="Regulus"]
I didn't specify what the plague affected. I was thinking of a disease that infected and killed the plant life, or perhaps even the herds.[/quote]

You don't need a disease to kill off prey animals. Regulus: you're a human. We evolved not as apex predators, so it's very easy for you to imagine what would happen if your home was suddenly invaded by an army of hungry predators. You run.

Nala said there was no food? Duh. Whatever didn't get eaten ran away. And read again what happens to grass when there's nothing eating it, nor the insects, up. To sum it up: Insects eat up all the grass that survives getting little nutrients, and soon enough, no grass left. Ever seen what happens during a locust swarm? Now keep that up for whenever new grass starts growing instead of only a few times.

[quote="Regulus"]Last time I checked, hyenas are not capable of adjusting the color of the ambient light of their environments.[/quote]

Just a few moments ago you clearly saw a storm moving in. And I can tell you from my flying experiences that land has a very important impact on the weather above it. A drastic change in plant and animal life will effect the weather as well.


[quote="Regulus"]
The destruction of the Pridelands was done for artistic affect, to symbolize Scar's terrible reign. I do not, however, believe that it was Scar's fault.[/quote]

Some of the destruction perhaps. But allowing an unchecked increase in predator population is a recipe for disaster. A drought might have made a bad problem worse, but Scar is still the one who made the problem bad in the first place. Savannas can survive drought: they do it every year. But a dead/dying savanna can't, so you get what you showed in the picture.

[quote="Regulus"]
I mean, look at that. Have you ever seen anything like that in real life, that was caused only by an overpopulation of predators? I sure haven't.[/quote]

Oh please. Now you're just saying something while purposely refusing to look around. Take off your blindfolds: Just take a look at your own species. Like too many people on the Earth_doesn't cause problems. Ever heard what happened when wolves were killed off in Yellowstone? We had to bring wolves back for a reason.

[quote="Regulus"]
On a similar note, would an ecosystem really recover fully in the amount of time before the cub is presented? In real life, that takes dozens of years, so the answer is no. It's all just symbolism.[/quote]

When did Simba and Nala decide to have a cub? It could have been after they saw that the savanna was growing back before they made the decision.

[Regulus]

I'm just going to keep this short and sweet:

You do realize hyenas are actually native to Africa, right? In real life, they've been thriving in the savannah for many millions of years. They're literally everywhere, because they can eat just about anything. That ecosystem is still intact, and, in fact, is more than likely reliant on the species in some form or another.

Hyenas are not some strange species that Scar introduced from another planet. Unless Scar bred them by the hundreds in those four or five years that Simba was away, it is unlikely to be the cause of the problem. They're part of the ecosystem too, just as the lions are.

[DGFone]

Yes, but you keep failing to notice that Scar introduced an unnatural number of hyenas to the Pride Lands. Yes, a hyena clan or two (composed of the same numbers as a lion pride or so) in an area is a number that the grasslands can handle. But Scar didn't allow a clan or two in. Let's take a look:

Lions:
and Natural? Yes.

Hyenas: (Pre-Scar ruling)
and Natural? Yes.

Now Scar wants the throne:

and

Natural and sustainable? Heck no! And guess which group Scar allowed in. A natural, sustainable amount of hyenas, composed of the hyenas that directly helped him in claiming the throne or...



Kiss the Pride Lands goodbye.

[Regulus]

Considering that the lions were able to drive away the hyenas with ease after Simba's return, their numbers were actually about even.

Also, how would Scar ever be able to bring an unnatural amount of hyenas into the Pridelands in the first place? Was he breeding them or something? Did he go all across Africa to gather them into a megaclan and bring them to the Pridelands?