Did Scar and the hyenas cause the destruction of the Pridelands?

[DGFone]

Or maybe the hyenas never came into one big force until Scar convinced them to cooperate for the "greater good".

Your guess is as good as mine as to where Scar got all the hyenas, but I don't see any way that you can justify that this large amount of hyenas is in any way a natural and sustainable level:

http://www.mylionking.com/resources/sit ... ab_766.jpg
http://www.mylionking.com/resources/sit ... ab_740.jpg
http://www.mylionking.com/resources/sit ... ab_748.jpg

So if you want answers as to how Scar got his paws on this army, don't ask me. But you should recognize that this amount of predators in a small areas as the Pride Lands will cause disruption, and over a prolonged period of time (the time it takes Simba to grow up in the Jungle), this cast number of predators will wreak havoc with their environment.

[Regulus]

There wasn't an army. It's just a symbolization of Scar's power for dramatic effect. It's just a cartoon.

But, as a cartoon, it isn't an accurate representation of reality. Lions and hyenas are enemies, but a coalition between the two would never lead to a completely devastated ecosystem. They're not tribbles or parasprites; they're not born pregnant. They take years to mature, and have only a few more offspring than to replace their own population with every generation.

It just doesn't work like that.

[DGFone]

[quote="Regulus"]There wasn't an army. It's just a symbolization of Scar's power for dramatic effect. It's just a cartoon.

But, as a cartoon, it isn't an accurate representation of reality. Lions and hyenas are enemies, but a coalition between the two would never lead to a completely devastated ecosystem. They're not tribbles or parasprites; they're not born pregnant. They take years to mature, and have only a few more offspring than to replace their own population with every generation.

It just doesn't work like that.[/quote]


So you ask for proof and supporting evidence, but in this very post, you decide that The Lion King itself doesn't qualify. I thought we were talking about The Lion King here, so if the movie itself doesn't qualify anymore, I don't know what can. Way to go on derailing the topic.

[Regulus]

If you can provide another reason as to how a thousand hyenas suddenly appear out of nowhere, then disappear as soon as Scar dies, please be my guest.

[DGFone]

[quote="Regulus"]If you can provide another reason as to how a thousand hyenas suddenly appear out of nowhere, then disappear as soon as Scar dies, please be my guest.[/quote]

I don't need to provide you the evidence, because you can clearly see the end result. We're talking about the Lion King here, so anything you can see in the movie is fair game. And if in one screenshot, I can count at least 40 hyenas just on one small section of Pride Rock, then guess what? There are at least 40 hyenas there at that spot in Pride Rock.

Source: http://www.animationsource.org/sites_co ... /17410.jpg

I'll be kind and not use "Be Prepared" as a source for the number of hyenas because for Disney, songs tend to break canon for their duration. But that screenshot I linked is not set during a song, so what you see is what happened. We see an army of hyenas not during a song, so therefore there is an army in the Pride Lands.

And it's also explicitly stated in TLKoB (again, outside of a song) that the lions were forced to over-hunt, largely due to the hyenas.

As for when they went afterwards? Ran away I guess. The Pride Lands looked deader than the elephant graveyard before that. Plus, with Scar's death, they don't have any obligation to remain in the Pride Lands.

So: Fact: Scar brought in an unnatural amount of hyenas into the Pride Lands. The lions are forced to over-hunt to compensate, and all the prey disappear. The now weakened savanna is helpless against the drought, which only kills off whatever didn't flee or die already. So yes, Scar is directly responsible for the destruction of the Pride Lands. The same way the HIV virus directly kills people: it doesn't kill them, it only kills their ability to defend themselves from every-day occurrences like the common cold. Without an effective defense, people die from a common occurrence. This is what Scar did to the Pride Lands: he disrupted the "circle of life", and when you stop the orbit of the circle, there's only one end: death.

[Regulus]

The story is told from the lion's point of view, and the lions are enemies with the hyenas.

For that reason, of course there's going to be blame placed on the Scar and the hyenas for ravaging the Pridelands. Any sort of portrayal of them is going to be negative at any time in the movie, just because it needs to be or else we would actually like the antagonist. It's like propaganda, but within the context of the movie instead of real political issues.

But common sense suggests that it wasn't Scar's entirely fault. He only moved them from outside the Pridelands to inside the Pridelands. I do not believe he had the wrong idea in doing so, because hyenas are part of the circle of life as well. In fact, he was following the 'circle of life' textbook, basically.

There's a drought, that much is certain. The lions are immediately going to say "I knew it! It's all Scar's fault that the herds are gone because of the hyenas!" But, in reality, if there was a drought, the herds would have left even if Mufasa was king.

I'm not saying that an army of hyenas in one place wouldn't create an ecological imbalance. It certainly would. But I'm saying two things:

The larger ecosystem (the Pridelands and its neighboring territories) had to have supported that many hyenas before Scar's reign, because they didn't spawn out of thin air.

The ecosystem was screwed during Scar's reign anyway, no matter what he did, because of a drought.

The rest is merely up to interpretation. We do not know how many hyenas there were, or how many that the Pridelands could support. There are many other variables at work here as well, that make speculation rather difficult.

[DGFone]

[quote="Regulus"]
The larger ecosystem (the Pridelands and its neighboring territories) had to have supported that many hyenas before Scar's reign, because they didn't spawn out of thin air.

The ecosystem was screwed during Scar's reign anyway, no matter what he did, because of a drought.

The rest is merely up to interpretation. We do not know how many hyenas there were, or how many that the Pridelands could support. There are many other variables at work here as well, that make speculation rather difficult.[/quote]

This is what I am saying: before Scar created an open-door policy to all hyenas, the amount of predators in the Pride Lands was kept at a reasonable count. But when Scar brought them in, he allowed too many in for the Pride Lands to support. The predator density was increased to an unsustainable level, to the point where the other animals couldn't keep up. You can't count them all, but there is clearly too many. Feeling or killed, you can see in quite a few screenshots that there is an overabundance of animal skeletons, and a lack of living creatures.

Savannas can survive drought. If Scar didn't devastate the Pride Lands by introducing the sheer amount of new predators, the drought would have gone and passed without too much incident. But because of his decision to ignore the imbalance his hyenas created, the Pride Lands were in no state to ward off a drought, and so when it came, it obliterated everything. Without the drought, a similar end would have come unless the hyenas would have gone away, although more time would have been required. You can't feed grass to lions nor hyenas. If they eat all the prey, drought or no drought, starvation is the end.

But the drought did happen, but ultimately, it was Scar who is at fault for destroying the Pride Lands, because he ruined the lands to the point where a drought was no longer just a minor concern, but a full blown disaster.

It's like taking a piece of paper and wetting it. Who's fault is it when someone writes on it and it tears? Paper can handle pen and pencils. Wet paper can't though. So in the end, Scar is still at fault.

[Regulus]

[quote="DGFone"]The predator density was increased to an unsustainable level, to the point where the other animals couldn't keep up.[/quote]

You do not know that. You are assuming that.

[quote="Regulus"]We do not know how many hyenas there were, or how many that the Pridelands could support. There are many other variables at work here as well, that make speculation rather difficult.[/quote]

[quote="DGFone"]Savannas can survive drought.[/quote]

Not a drought of the length and severity that was shown in the movie. All the vegetation had dried up completely, and there was literally not a drop of water.

Nothing survives long without water, except maybe a few odd forms of bacteria here and there.

[DGFone]

[quote="Regulus"]
You do not know that. You are assuming that.[/quote]

To quote Nala from TLKoB: "Scar, you have to do something! We're being forced to over-hunt!" So clearly, Nala is too very well aware that the hunting practices governed by Scar are unsustainable and are causing trouble.

So nope, I am not assuming that. You know, sometimes it does help doing a bit of research before saying something drastic like this.

[quote="Regulus"]We do not know how many hyenas there were, or how many that the Pridelands could support. There are many other variables at work here as well, that make speculation rather difficult.

Not a drought of the length and severity that was shown in the movie. All the vegetation had dried up completely, and there was literally not a drop of water.
Nothing survives long without water, except maybe a few odd forms of bacteria here and there.[/quote]

And how long is that drought? You can't simply assume that it's a "long drought".

Remember what I said happens when plant-eaters are hunted out or run away: plants grow uncontrollably until they don't have anything left to grow with. It's very possible that the grass grew the Pride Lands dry.

[Regulus]

[quote="DGFone"]To quote Nala from TLKoB: "Scar, you have to do something! We're being forced to over-hunt!"[/quote]

Translation: "I want a day off from hunting and I want you to think this is all the hyena's fault."

Nala might say it's true, but that doesn't mean it is true.

And if that wasn't true, there would be no need for this topic to begin with.

There's two sides to every story, and while Scar's is "I don't care," there's still more to it than that.

[quote="DGFone"]And how long is that drought? You can't simply assume that it's a "long drought".

Remember what I said happens when plant-eaters are hunted out or run away: plants grow uncontrollably until they don't have anything left to grow with. It's very possible that the grass grew the Pride Lands dry.[/quote]

An overabundance of plants (if that would even happen) (or if that would even happen before the land dries up) isn't going to make all the water dry up. Plants only absorb water near their roots.

And, another point I wanted to make: if the herds have all left, then many plants can't reproduce (at a high rate), and thus can't cause that megadrought. Plant reproduction varies based on the species, but for the most part, fruits and berries are meant to be eaten.