My Lion King Forum

One of the things I love about online fandom (for the MOST) part is how a lot of us can deconstruct things that we love passionately. This includes critique. I firmly believe that even when you love something, it is very possible to dissect it and point out its flaws while still hold whatever it is in high esteem. For me, TLK is one of those things so now I bring you another round of my brainfarts. Feel free to contribute, nitpick or whatever.

1. I wish there was an extended scene between Mufasa and Sarabi. Yes, just by seeing them nuzzling one another in the beginning of the film is enough to crush any doubt of the love between the two. However, I feel that I was robbed of a good scene between Muffy and Sarabi. They never even SPOKE to one another in the film. To me, that is messed up. There could have been a opportunity to show the differing parenting styles between the two, i.e. Mufasa being the strict parent while Sarabi being the nurturing and calm mum. There was no conversation between the two of them AT ALL and I think that is bull. The only thing we have is the beginning of the film where he nuzzles her. And personally, Mufasa/Sarabi>>>Simba/Nala (YAWN).

2. Rafiki and Simba scene. I could see Rafiki be Simba's tutor. Mufasa teaches his son how to be a strong and fair ruler while Rafiki takes on a more educational/spiritual approach. Simba does not appreciate these 'lessons' and finds amusement in throwing spitballs and his mentor's blue butt. That could have been an opportunity for comedy and we could have seen more young Simba. Then again, would that scene when they 'reunite' by the pool have been as effective if Simba knew who he was?

3. More YOUNG Nala. If you notice, young Nala has ONE extended scene. From the time she is having her bath to IJCWTBK to the elephant graveyard which ends in their rescue. I actually prefer young Nala on account that she was more likely to disagree with Simba. Adult Nala seemed to be so far up his butt about being King which annoyed me as a kid. I remember thinking 'Geez, doesn't she have any other motivation? Does she want to be the Queen, is that it?" LOL! I find the younger counterpart more fascinating as she had a mind of her own. Would have loved to have seen how she coped after that terrible tragedy.

4. Hyena and lioness interaction. Although we did not see it, I wouldn't put it past the lionesses in disliking Scar. Maybe one of them overheard a 'rumor' from the hyenas about what REALLY happened that awful day but due to fear, they could not speak up.

5. The lionesses under Scar's rule. I once wrote a fic based on this. I also saw this wonderful piece of fanart a few months back. Basically it has Sarabi and Nala and the artist made a deliberate parallel to "Prince of Egypt" when Miriam and Sephorah/Tzipporah sang 'When you believe' after the Hebrews were freed from Pharaoh Ramses rule. I would have LOVED to have seen a moment with the lionesses coping by enjoying one another's company. Then the moment gets shot down when the hyenas catch them.

Anyone else wanna share?

While you're at it, why not make the entire movie a 3-hour long epic instead of the 90 minute we got.

All kidding aside, I do agree with all these points, except for two parts:

1. When you said that Sarabi and Mufasa never talked to each other, that is technically incorrect. In the beginning of the movie, when young Simba wants to wake Mufasa up, we get the rather humorous "Your son's awake" and "Before sunrise, he's your son". But yes, I do see your point: the interactions between Sarabi and Mufasa are a rather disappointing low. As queen, Sarabi should have had more screen time, for instance, arriving with Mufasa to the graveyard to rescue Simba and Nala, and then escorting Nala back to Sarafina. Adding to this, like many, I feel like The Lion King could have used more Sarafina, as a contrast from Sarabi and Mufasa's "you'll be king one day" upbringing to a more common parenting style with Nala.

2. I do agree that it is odd that Simba never met Rafiki before the pool, I also think that if he already knew who Rafiki was, the magic of seeing Mufasa again would have been ruined. Plus, Nala already tried to get Simba to return to the Pride Lands. If Simba knew who Rafiki was as well, he could have easily thought of their sudden return as a sort of conspiracy to kidnap him back to the Pride Lands to face justice. So I am with the "let Rafiki remain a mystery" group.

As for everything else you said, I agree wholly. And yes, my joke at the beginning of the post still stands. The Lion King could be much improved if it were made longer, at the quality of The Lion King and not the Morning Report song.

I'd love to see a bunch of things. First off, I want to know exactly HOW the Pride Lands dried up and died as a result of Scar's ruling. I want to see what was going on while Simba was chilling in the jungle. I want more Sarabi. I want a lot of stuff

Oh well, thus is the beauty of fanfiction

[quote="DGFone"]While you're at it, why not make the entire movie a 3-hour long epic instead of the 90 minute we got.

All kidding aside, I do agree with all these points, except for two parts:

1. When you said that Sarabi and Mufasa never talked to each other, that is technically incorrect. In the beginning of the movie, when young Simba wants to wake Mufasa up, we get the rather humorous "Your son's awake" and "Before sunrise, he's your son". But yes, I do see your point: the interactions between Sarabi and Mufasa are a rather disappointing low. As queen, Sarabi should have had more screen time, for instance, arriving with Mufasa to the graveyard to rescue Simba and Nala, and then escorting Nala back to Sarafina. Adding to this, like many, I feel like The Lion King could have used more Sarafina, as a contrast from Sarabi and Mufasa's "you'll be king one day" upbringing to a more common parenting style with Nala.

2. I do agree that it is odd that Simba never met Rafiki before the pool, I also think that if he already knew who Rafiki was, the magic of seeing Mufasa again would have been ruined. Plus, Nala already tried to get Simba to return to the Pride Lands. If Simba knew who Rafiki was as well, he could have easily thought of their sudden return as a sort of conspiracy to kidnap him back to the Pride Lands to face justice. So I am with the "let Rafiki remain a mystery" group.

As for everything else you said, I agree wholly. And yes, my joke at the beginning of the post still stands. The Lion King could be much improved if it were made longer, at the quality of The Lion King and not the Morning Report song.[/quote]


What's wrong with 3 hour long epics? Has Peter Jackson taught you nothing?!

And yes, you are right about THAT scene between Mufasa and Sarabi. That in itself HINTED, to me at least in how they differ in raising Simba. I COULD be looking too much into it. I will admit that much.

(PS, so looking forward to The Hobbit!)

I never said that I won't mind seeing The Lion King as a three hour long epic. In fact, I would love it. The problem is that even if Disney decided to expand it, I don't see how they will be able to succeed in matching the quality of the original in all but art (which they can no doubt replicate). But what really matters: the characters, the music, atmosphere... I don't think Disney has it anymore to compete with The Lion King.

But if TLK came out as a 3-hour long bonanza: Bring it! (Unfortunately, it didn't)

Count me in for the 3-hour epic. Seriously though, there were a few things I wish could have been included which seem to be similar to what has already been mentioned

1. More of Nala growing up under Scar's rule. It would be interesting to see how she dealt with Simba being gone, how it shaped her to grow up in such an evil time, etc.

2. More of Scar's reign in general. What exactly was he doing that made him hated? Was it just that he was self-serving, or did he become somewhat of a victim to the hyenas himself?

That's just the things that were pretty much completely omitted. I wouldn't mind some extended scenes of things we already saw like Mufasa teaching Simba either.

Wow what great responses everyone. I would also love if The Lion King was a 3 hour epic (although if it was that may have affected the pacing of the movie). I would have liked to see a scene between Sarafina and Nala where they spoke of Nala's Father, that was one very important detail that was left out of the film. I wonder what, if anything Nala knows about her Father. Oh and this thought of mine is only worth mentioning if we all assume that Nala's Father is a Lion that we have not seen. I do not want to side track this thread.

[quote="KentuckyWildcat"]
1. More of Nala growing up under Scar's rule. It would be interesting to see how she dealt with Simba being gone, how it shaped her to grow up in such an evil time, etc.
[/quote]

I think Disney did right in leaving out Scar's reign. The short scene we get of Scar's lazy rule is purposefully there to juxtaposition it to Simba's relaxed Hakuna Matata lifestyle. But there is a reason why Nala was left out: as The Lion King is Simba's story, the audience needs to be just as surprised at Nala's arrival as Simba is. To show her growing up under Scar's rule, some of that surprise when she will show up will be lost, because the audience will know that Nala is still part of the story.

SimbasGuard: It's not canon, but I think three stories about Nala's father can be found in the current writing contest.

Okay...I'll finally post a comment to this thread.

If anyone wants to see a 3-hour version of The Lion King, then, by all means, watch The Lion King stage musical on Broadway or the closest musical theater near your area. It's about 3 hours, isn't it? Anyway, it expands and adds more depth to the film's storyline and characters, and some of the changes (Rafiki being a female) don't change the story that drastically.

I can pretty much agree with DGFone's earlier statements on Points 1 and 2.

[quote="TheBlackCatCrossing"]3. More YOUNG Nala. If you notice, young Nala has ONE extended scene. From the time she is having her bath to IJCWTBK to the elephant graveyard which ends in their rescue. I actually prefer young Nala on account that she was more likely to disagree with Simba. Adult Nala seemed to be so far up his butt about being King which annoyed me as a kid. I remember thinking 'Geez, doesn't she have any other motivation? Does she want to be the Queen, is that it?" LOL! I find the younger counterpart more fascinating as she had a mind of her own. Would have loved to have seen how she coped after that terrible tragedy.[/quote]

Honestly, I can what you what mean by there not being enough young Nala. The childhood scenes between Nala and Simba were actually throw in later during the story development process. You see, when the writers wanted Simba and Nala to reunite and fall in love as adults, they had written nothing of their past relationship to fall back on. Hopefully, this excerpt explains it better than me:

[quote="The Lion King Archives"]...they later found themselves struggling with the "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" scene;
they couldn't figure out how to make it work. First they took Elton's song (what we know today as the radio version) and had Timon and Pumbaa singing it, sarcastically. Elton saw it and went into a fuming rage, which Minkoff and Allers related in quite graphic detail. So they recast it, changing the lyrics around, making it into more the abstract love song that we now have; but Elton was still furious: he called
Katzenberg on his cell phone as the latter was driving north on the Golden Gate Bridge on his way to see George Lucas; Elton on the phone was described as unloading on him with a string of expletives
unsuitable even for the Internet. But in the stream of invective was a really important insight: the love scene, at that time in development, was an *unearned* plot point. See, at that time the writers hadn't fleshed out Simba's and Nala's relationship as cubs; there was nothing to refer back to when they were reunited, nothing for the audience to connect with or to feel any sense of realism about their reactions to each other. So the story guys went back and added all the little bits-- the wrestling/pinning scenes, the bath, the waterhole, and so on. With those in place, the love scene made a lot more sense, and Elton was appeased.[/quote]

So, it makes sense that Simba and Nala's childhood scene feels like one extended scene because it was added on until later unlike Mufasa's death, which was always a crucial scene when they were developing the story.

For my tastes, I think there was enough of young Nala. She served her purpose, which was to introduce the "pinned ya" plot device and make Simba's past relationship with her more realistic. Anything outside of that wouldn't have helped the story.

[quote="TheBlackCatCrossing"]4. Hyena and lioness interaction. Although we did not see it, I wouldn't put it past the lionesses in disliking Scar. Maybe one of them overheard a 'rumor' from the hyenas about what REALLY happened that awful day but due to fear, they could not speak up.[/quote]

Maybe. There is a thread titled "A review of TLK mentioning a big problem" debating the Nostalgia Critic's questioning of the movie's theme of responsibility when in fact, Simba was not responsible for his father's death. Copying Noah there, but: "According to the movie's logic, if Simba did do it, he should die, because the lionesses didn't try to intervene."

If a/the lioness(es) had any details based on the rumor, it would have improved that scene a bit because they wouldn't be left in dark wondering what's going on. So, one or they could call out Scar based on the rumor because it doesn't match up with Scar stating Simba is responsible for Mufasa's murder. The lionesses and Simba would question which story is true, and eventually they decide Scar is a liar and the real murderer, and the battle ensues.

However, for my tastes, i prefer it the way it is. It adds more drama to the scene when Sarabi asks her son, "It's not true...tell me it's not true," and it all comes to a head when Scar pushes Simba off of Pride Rock's edge. Even though, that scene had problems with Simba jumping foward to pin Scar with nothing below to support his jump.

[quote="TheBlackCatCrossing"]5. The lionesses under Scar's rule. I once wrote a fic based on this. I also saw this wonderful piece of fanart a few months back. Basically it has Sarabi and Nala and the artist made a deliberate parallel to "Prince of Egypt" when Miriam and Sephorah/Tzipporah sang 'When you believe' after the Hebrews were freed from Pharaoh Ramses rule. I would have LOVED to have seen a moment with the lionesses coping by enjoying one another's company. Then the moment gets shot down when the hyenas catch them. [/quote]

I do not think this would add nothing to the story. TLK is Simba's story, and we follow him from his birth to his adulthood. We only know so much about Scar's reign as much as Simba does. That way, to first-time viewers, it should be feeling the same reaction as Simba feels when he tries his homeland barren for the first time. If we see more of Scar's reign than we're supposed, we lose that reaction, and that emotional part of the scene.