The Great Kings of the Past

The Great Kings of the Past

Postby Carl » February 11th, 2015, 6:21 pm

Obviously we're all very aware of how important the theme of the "Great Kings" was in the films. It comes up in all three films, and is in fact a very relevant underlying concept. It is very akin to the ancestor worship of some cultures, which has almost religious connotations. I find it very interesting to explore the concept of the Great Kings in fan fictions and in general, and so I'd like to open up a discussion of them.

On more than one occasion I've heard people refer to the song "He Lives in You" from Simba's Pride as a religious song. What's interesting about this interpretation, however, is that it was written before Simba's Pride was created, inspired by the first movie, and it was later used in the Broadway musical as a reprise of another version of the song called "They Live in You." This version was sung to Simba by Mufasa during the scene about the Great Kings of the Past, and so it refers specifically to them in this case, furthering the idea that the original is about Mufasa.

So, knowing as we do that the lions of Pride Rock venerate their dead, the kings anyway, what can we infer about their culture and/or their religious beliefs?

Ancestor worship on its own isn't usually seen as a religion, but it is a very spiritual practice, and that shows in the films. Simba is constantly looking to Mufasa's spirit for guidance, and Zira pleads to Scar to watch over her "poor Nuka," things many people turn to a god for, but that some cultures do look to their progenitors for. Considering that the lions live away from the influence of any humans, and especially Europeans and Western ideas, it is safe to say that, like most tribes separated from these, they do not share the spirituality of the "West" having no way to know about it. But do they see the Kings of the Past as gods themselves, or is it more like the Chinese practice sprung from a concept of filial piety?

Many Chinese, of varying religious faiths, engage in this same kind of ancestor worship, believing that, to quote Wikipedia, "the relationship and obligations of children toward their parents remains intact even after death." This sounds like the theme we see in The Lion King, doesn't it? Simba is always striving to be the good king Mufasa would have wanted him to be, and Zira is diligently vying for Kovu to take Scar's place as king and finish what Scar had started by getting rid of Simba. Many non-Western cultures share this vein of spirituality. It often ties in to communities that place a high value on family, which we know that real lion prides do, to a degree. In the wild, lions live in large, family groups consisting of a few males and many females. It is true that the young males are typically driven out of the pride, but this is to keep genetics from being too interbred, and to spread the lineage of those lions, not that lions actually think about this or think of lineage in real life. But in the case of these cognizant lions of The Lion King, it is easy to take pride life a step farther and see strong family ties. In fact all of the lions we see in the movies seem to have strong family bonds aside from Scar.

In the first film, the lionesses are almost as a unit, they are banded together, and they all support Mufasa, Sarabi, and Simba. Nala leaves to find help, but does not bail out on her pride to save herself; she goes back for them, with Simba in tow, and despite the sorry state of the Pride Lands, the two stay after defeating Scar, and take care of their family. In the sequel we see Simba being very protective of Kiara, and we see the Outlanders displaying strong family ties as well. Nuka struggles to win his mother's attention, Kovu is very conflicted about abandoning his family for Kiara, and even after he turns his back on them he still is upset about Nuka's death and tries to be there for them. Vitani's ceasing to fight has always seemed to me to come from a place of not wanting to lose her mother and Kovu as she had lost Nuka, again, being a strong family tie. And of course, no matter their relationship, Zira's devotion to Scar could stem from the same thing, whether she really is his mate or a relative or simply sees herself as a part of his family.

If it was nothing more than that, and Simba's occasionally seeing (or thinking he sees) Mufasa's spirit, then I don't know if there would necessarily be religious aspects to this belief. Then we have all that stuff with Rafiki though. He talks to Mufasa's spirit, and does the things Mufasa wants him to do, supposedly. That makes it take on a more religious tone, and makes Mufasa seem almost like a lone god, especially considering that Simba gazes up at his smiling face at the end. Of course other kings would not be shown, as they were not relevant to the story, but this begs the question: are they really up there? Is the universe of The Lion King "alive" with the spirits of the dead kings in actuality, rather than just in the spirituality of the lions? It would seem so. Unless we completely discredit Simba's Pride and mark off Simba's encounter with Mufasa's ghost in the first film as a hallucination. Is it fair to do that though?

And what about the other creatures? Do the herd animals get to speak with the spirits of their loved ones in the same way? Do they venerate their dead, as the lions do, or do they have a different belief system? What about the other predators? Specifically, what about the hyenas? Could this be part of what caused the bitterness between the two species? Did the hyenas know that the lions' Great Kings truly existed, and did they covet the position of the lions as not only the rulers of the land, but also the heads of the religion?

Obviously this is all just speculation for fun, and is mostly questions, but I'd like to know what you all think. :)

Let's all be friendly now and try to keep this as part of the movie's mythos, rather than worrying about our human religions too much. We don't want to offend anyone. It's just a fun thing to think about, what role the Great Kings of the Past truly served, and how much of an affect it may have had on the story.
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Re: The Great Kings of the Past

Postby Lauren » February 11th, 2015, 11:55 pm

I really love the concept of the "Great Kings" and it's such an important part of the films as well as a motivation for the characters and the family ties they have. The fact that they look upon their deceased ancestors/leaders for spiritual communication makes the world have much more dimensionality since it's brought up several times in each of the two films. For me, it's always great to watch those scenes since they're beautiful and I can relate with having someone guiding me through life even if I'm not with them, especially the scene where Mufasa talks to Simba during the night in order to set things right again back home where he belongs. Even in "We Are One", one of the lyrics Simba sings is, "Even those who are gone are with us as we go on." That's how much spirituality and family connection has an impact on the characters in this universe and it feels very believable. :)
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Re: The Great Kings of the Past

Postby TheLionPrince » February 12th, 2015, 1:49 am

Funny, I just re-watched Mulan with the audio commentary track with the producer and directors, and they really expounded upon the traditional Chinese act of ancestral prayer and guidance. While the two movies used the religious practice for different story purposes, I felt Mulan did a better job of weaving the religious tradition into the mainframe of the story (given the ancestors meant to send the Great Stone Dragon to protect her during the war) while the Great Kings of the Past in The Lion King are mentioned by Mufasa, and then it is remembered by Simba to acknowledge to the viewers he has forsaken his father's teachings.

Now don't get me wrong, I love the story concept of the Great Kings of the Past. Although they are mentioned twice in the first film, it drives home the point of the story that while the ones we love are physically dead, they are spiritually alive within us. So, that theological concept comforts a lot of people, and why people may see "He Lives in You" as a reference to Jesus or the Christian God living on the inside of them. I don't believe the Great Kings are meant to be viewed as gods or deities, but simply spirits of those who once lived that can interact with the living.

Good question! I never thought of the herd animals or the hyenas having their own ancestors to look up to. Given the characters are referred to as the Great Kings, and the lions themselves are seen as royal whereas the rest of the animals are commoners (that must be respected as said by Mufasa), it leads me to say no. It is also enforced by the fact that Timon (a meerkat) believes it is the silliest concept he ever heard, and Pumbaa shows unfamiliarity with it. However, we may never know. The herd animals are plot devices (i.e. the wildebeest), and represent the animal kingdom and the Circle of Life.

If the hyenas had their own ancestors to seek wisdom and guidance, then, they wouldn't have to look to Scar as their savior. However, we may not know if they do have ancestors to seek. If the hyenas did, then, the ancestors certainly haven't answered their prayers for who knows what reasons. Or the hyenas weren't satisfied with the answers their ancestors gave them. For now, it's all speculation and there are several theories to throw around.
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Re: The Great Kings of the Past

Postby DGFone » February 12th, 2015, 3:47 am

Julie, just a quick correction on your post, "He Lives in You" is not even a song from the Broadway adaptation of The Lion King - it was originally made for and released on the Rhythm of the Pride Lands album. The album itself was made basically shortly after the movie finished production as a 'sequel' to the Lion King Original Motion Picture Soundtrack. The song was later adapted into the Broadway musical and then used again in Simba's Pride. But because it was released on Rhythm of the Pride Lands, I very much consider it a song from the first movie rather than as a Simba's Pride or even a TLKoB song.(more info right here on MLK: http://www.mylionking.com/theatre/lk/pr ... dio_sequel)

As for the main subject of this thread:

About "He Lives in You" being called a religious song, my sister claims that it, along with the whole "Kings of the Past" is actually very much a Christian allegory. As far as the song goes, I can certainly see that, but with the movie using "kings" and not "king" of the past, I think that the movie centers more on trying to imitate the more ethnic religions in Africa. I don't have any sources, but I remember years ago in school a teacher told my class how in some places in Africa, people do lift up their newborns up much like Rafiki does with Simba.

However, keeping in mind that The Lion King is inspired heavily by Hamlet, where the king really does come back as a ghost to get Hamlet to return home, you can also think of the Kings of the Past as being a logical extension of this phenomenon, assuming that Mufasa wasn't a one-off All-In-Simba's-Head thing. If your dead family members can in fact come back to you and talk to you in your great times of need, and you don't have the technology to be able to tell that the stars are just suns very far away, then what is to say that it is not logical to assume that when they are not talking to you, that your ancestors are not watching things from up high in the sky - from the stars?

As for having to be a royal to get to watch over the living, I think that's not really an important thing, actually. Mufasa is a king and his family are royals, so when he is talking about his ancestors watching over everyone, of course they would be royals too. That's how royal dynasties work. Since Mufasa is the only one to actually come back to talk to someone alive, it's not exactly a good data set to say for certain that it has to be someone special, or if in fact every single living creature gets this ability, just never the need.
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Re: The Great Kings of the Past

Postby Carl » February 12th, 2015, 4:01 am

[quote="DGFone"]Julie, just a quick correction on your post, "He Lives in You" is not even a song from the Broadway adaptation of The Lion King - it was originally made for and released on the Rhythm of the Pride Lands album. The album itself was made basically shortly after the movie finished production as a 'sequel' to the Lion King Original Motion Picture Soundtrack. The song was later adapted into the Broadway musical and then used again in Simba's Pride. But because it was released on Rhythm of the Pride Lands, I very much consider it a song from the first movie rather than as a Simba's Pride or even a TLKoB song.(more info right here on MLK: http://www.mylionking.com/theatre/lk/pr ... dio_sequel)[/quote]

I know it was on that album first. It was released in 1995 and TLKoB was '97, I believe. I didn't say it came from TLKoB, I merely pointed out that it was used there and how because that was relevant to the topic. :P
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