Would this movie be held in higher regard if...

[Elton John]

Is it really such a bad thing that simba and nalas romance felt lacking? Unlike the previous 3 disney renaissance films the focus was more on the father/son relationship than a romantic one.

It's like complaining about king tritan/ariels / belle/her father or jasmine/the sultan. That wasn't the focus of the film. In those, the romance was important and if it was lacking then it would be bad. In those movies the parent/child relationship are weak but those aren't the big focuses of the film.

Simba and nala also mentioned that they 'really missed each other'. It implies that they thought of each other often while being apart. Which doesn't make their romance completely unbelievable.

[crownofsimba]

Oh no and I think the fact that the movie is more mythic makes that natural? Because in myth not everything has to be explained or even make sense put together, so long as the audience understands what is happening.

Like they don't really need much buildup bc of course she'd fall for Simba he's the Noble Son. Though the one issue is that Nala ends up having less characterization than anyone else so she's hard to write without looking at semi-canon materials or trying to fake her personality, of which we know that she's brave and self-confident.

One of the few things I liked about 1.5 was the fact that they apparently went on dates in the jungle even if the timing was vastly off.

[Elton John]

I think they did a good job fleshing her out in the first movie considering how long animated films were back then. It wasn't until recently that disney started making longer animated films in their canon.

Tlk wasn't a surefire success, it was created by the wdas b-team and high quality hand drawn films are very time consuming to make.

All things considered it's a miracle tlk worked as well as it did.

And about it not being a critical darling, fantastic films like blade runner/american psycho/citizen kane weren't critical darlings back then but are now considered to be classics.

Fantasia was also another film considered to be a classic that critics were rough on.

[TheLionPrince]

[quote="Elton John"]Is it really such a bad thing that simba and nalas romance felt lacking? Unlike the previous 3 disney renaissance films the focus was more on the father/son relationship than a romantic one.[/quote]

No, I don't think you're in the wrong. The filmmakers really struggled with making the song work in the film. A treatment that dates back to September 1992 (and a leaked story reel) reveals that Simba actually confessed to Nala that if he weren't for him, his father would still be alive. Next, Simba wants Nala to stay with him in the jungle, and the scene then transitions to an early version of "Can You Feel the Love Tonight".

According to the book Disneywar: The Battle for the Magic Kingdom, the directors felt the romance between the two characters was an "unearned" moment, and ultimately removed the song for the next story reel screening, which Elton John attended and was angry for the song's removal.

The filmmakers then went back and forth with a version with Timon and Pumbaa before ultimately restructuring the plot to make the song work.

[Elton John]

Well, looking deeper, is it really implausible that they fell in love so quickly?

They already had a strong emotional connection when young as friends. They mention missing each other which implies that they thought of each other often. And with those things combined, simba spent lord knows how many years without a type of companionship that timon and pumbaa couldn't provide.

Lets say you are friends with this girl who lives next door to you. You're best friends. One of you moves far away, not having seen each other for years. In that time the two of you constantly think of each other.

Then you meet up one day and none of you are taken, and she's perfect for you and vice versa. Is it really strange if you fall in love very quickly?

[Captain Cupcake]

I think it would have felt more tacked on had they constantly pushed a lovey-dovey chemistry between the two after the CYFTLT sequence.

The thing that makes the romance work is how it's presented as a night of fun, passion, and falling in love. Throughout the majority of that scene, we see them just fooling around as friends and things only get really steamy right toward the end of it. Immediately after that song segment concludes, the film cuts to a scene of them just talking normally with no romantic implications in any of the dialogue. They discuss more important things at hand, and ultimately even argue at the end of their conversation. At no point are they cemented as a genuine couple. What happened before was just a fleeting intimate moment, and could have just as easily never been anything more than that(unless Nala would have managed to talk to Simba like she wanted to do the following day to patch things up).

This makes their whole relationship feel a lot more organic and believable despite the lack of attention and build up towards them becoming each other's mates at the end of the story. If they had retained all that deleted content shown in the work print, deleted scenes and so forth containing scenes and lines that blatantly suggest that they're already together, it'd be a lot more schmaltzy and look more obviously tacked on.

[crownofsimba]

I mean I'm not saying that the fact that it was too quick to be realistic is a bad thing, the movie doesn't run on realism so much as it does on themes. And the tryst does work better for the fact that they get right back to business afterwards.

But it still feels a little tacked on considering it just HAPPENS with no buildup? Or if they just hadn't seen any other lions for so long that they bonded so quickly, and it ended up being a good match. Or maybe they had a bunch of dates after Scar was deposed while the Pridelands were rebuilt.

Although maybe in TLG we will get more of their married dynamics. SP has an awful lack of Nala.

[Squeely]

It's hard to say, really. I think a lot of plot elements would need to be re-worked, since you have to see TLK to understand what's going on in SP. Simba being overprotective and jerkish only works in SP because we saw what he went through in TLK. Zira only works as a villain because we spent time with Scar in TLK.

Simba would probably need to be more like Mufasa, rather than struggling to rule the way he mistakenly thinks Mufasa would. Though retaining some of his SP over-protectiveness would make some sense if Simba knew there was another pride of lions out for war. We would need to meet Scar in some capacity, and his relationship with Zira would need to be fleshed out. Scar would probably need to die somewhat early, or else it would be difficult for the events concerning Kovu and Nuka to play out similarly to how they do in SP. It also wouldn't make sense for the Outsiders to bide their time unless they were training Kovu sans Scar.

I've often wondered what SP's songs would be like if written by John and Rice. In this case, Circle of Life would probably replace He Lives in You, because that's another thing that doesn't make sense unless you've seen TLK.

[Amadi_the_Guard]

I believe that if SP was the first movie made on a bigger budget, it would get a lot more recognition then it does now, but that it would be nowhere near as loved as TLK is. Why?
Well, lets face it - at the age of the target audience of the movies, children find it far easier to understand the love between parent and a child, rather then actual romance. I believe that's what makes TLK so popular to begin with, there is love, alright. but it's not the center of the plot.
The second main point action that's always present in TLK. The plot is very dynamic and almost every scene has a purpose, and the overall movie doesn't get stuck on one genre like SP that pretty much concentrates on Kovu and Kiara getting together.

Having that said, I still believe SP is one of the better - if not the best Disney sequel out there. Characters are developed and original, plot and music are decent, animation is... alright, the conflict is similar to the one in the original, but doesn't let it show... Sure, there are some plot-holes and problems here and there but all in all it's a positive experience.

Of course, some alterations to the plot would have to be made. If there was no TLK, some of the characters original to that movie would have to be ignored in favor of more important ones to the plot. For example, Simba wouldn't be the protagonist we all know and love who later became a father, he would merely be the father to the protagonist. We probably wouldn't even see all that much of him in the movie, and there wouldn't be any need for us too sympathize with him, either. Just like Mufasa is mainly known as Simba's father and a wise character in the original, while Simba is far more sympathetic and easy to relate to.
Speaking of whom, I doubt Mufasa would even get directly mentioned, put apart shown as a ghost. Disney tends to keep their character count as small a possible, and they also restrain from mentioning names that aren't needed or relevant to the plot, in order not to confuse the audience. That's why we never heard the names of Mufasa and Scar's parents. Besides, come on, we all know the reason for us not being scared of Mufasa's ghost is because we know fully who he is, and that his appearance will be helpful. If Rafiki would stop every now and then to talk to some 'Mufasa' ghost guy we had no idea about, it'd be pretty creepy.
As for Scar - I believe he'd simply become that one lion who tried to steal the crown at one point - either from Simba or his nameless father. There would be no point in making him and Simba related, and therefore Kovu would probably be his biological son. All in all,. it would be fairly similar to that one cartoon with blue and red foxes.

Now I wonder what TLK would be like as a prequal.