Feeling sick... how about you?

[MooLion]

^ There was a second Goofy Movie? Not that I thought much of the first, but I did not know that.

SP varies for me over the years... The definite consensus I have is that it's quite nice but not amazing, and certainly not to the original's standards by a long stretch.

[Carl]

I honestly don't understand why so many people hate on this movie. It was better than 1.5, and besides that, it's hella better than other direct-to-video sequels (should we mention Hunchback of Notre Dame 2 and Pocahontas 2?). Considering that it was direct-to-video, we should already know going in that it won't be as good as the first movie, as these sequels rarely are. But it was a damn good sequel compared to many others, and movies like this one are actually good for some people. Honestly I don't know if I'd have been able to make myself go on with life if there wasn't any hope out there like was given by this movie. I wrote much more about it in this post in the archive long ago that details my opinions of the movie. Yes this film could have been much better, but it provided real hope for me that maybe one day, the mainstream "normal" people will come to accept people like me and stop ostracizing us, just like what happened for the Outlanders. Yes, I know it's unrealistic and predictable, but that kind of thing makes people feel better sometimes, and quite honestly if you don't see the value of this film, then I envy the cushy, cozy, spoonfed life you've lived. This is far from the best movie ever, and it's not as good as the first, but to say it makes you feel sick? That's beyond ridiculous. I actually preferred this movie to the first one for quite a long time because the message applied to me and was able to give me hope for a better future which the first one simply cannot do. I can't relate to Simba at all, I've never had a family member murder another and frame me for it and ruin my life. But I can relate to Kovu, and Kiara, Zira, Nuka, and especially Vitani, because I have been pushed aside, outcast, and criticized because of the "evil" of my love; I have been treated like crap for being different and even to this day there is no movie I have found that gives me more hope that it will be okay (even if it is false hope) and that makes me feel better about life in general, than this film, even though it isn't up to par storywise with the first one.

There were bad things in it; I have quite a few gripes you can find around here, such as Simba's pure stupidity when it comes to the ambush, Nala and Simba's drastic changes of personality, Kovu's reaction to his reflection, and the redundancy of Timon and Pumbaa's roles in the film, for starters. For a longer list of problems I had with the film, look at this post (though beware, there are mistakes in there; they are corrected farther down the thread). I'm including all of this because I don't think the movie is perfect, and I do acknowledge that it is extremely flawed even though I do really really like the movie.

If you didn't like the movie, well that's perfectly fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But just as I will not pretend that the storyline was perfect or that the movie had no flaws, you should also not pretend there was nothing good about this film.

[quote="Ravvij"]
Yes. Very true. The final fight scene was one sided and to be quite honest, a winning army doesn't care if an argument is sound. When they're winning they go all the way. It's just kind of pathetic that all it took was one little conversation, no matter how right or just. And, Nuka's sister being as viscous as she was, wouldn't have sided with Kovu THAT easily. If anything, she would have been the last to turn good next to her mother, who never did.[/quote]

I don't see how it could be considered turning on her mother if you look at it from Vitani's perspective. I'm going to quote something else I've written already on this subject:

[quote]That said, I don't think any of the Outlanders besides Zira had any loyalty to Scar. They switched sides so quickly, this implies they felt no devotion to the cause. It's hard to say for sure since obviously these characters weren't in the first movie, but most of them just seem to want to not be forced to live in the Outlands any more and to actually be able to eat. They never thought Simba would accept them, since they'd been banished (my theory being that either they showed up after the first film, and looked similar enough to Scar and Zira for Simba to panic, or they were friends with Zira or something and not necessarily loyal to Scar, as Zira herself is the only one who ever mentions wanting to avenge Scar, other than the brainwashed Kovu) and so they fought until they heard Kiara's little speech and saw that it affected Simba. Once they saw he wasn't cruel like Zira insisted and was willing to attempt to make up for his mistake, then why should they fight and risk more injury or the Outlands?

Zira is the only one who refused to be swayed because of her ridiculous devotion to Scar. She was like a cult leader, trying to brainwash the others, and obviously succeeding at least in part. When they saw Simba was going to stop the fighting and invited them to come back with him, I'm sure they realized that any more deaths (like Nuka's) were unnecessary. Vitani probably didn't want Zira to die while fighting and probably didn't want to fight Kovu, being her only brother left, and so I can't see any reason for her not to switch sides.[/quote]

Vitani couldn't possibly have had any direct loyalty to Scar, considering how young she was at the start of the film. If she continued opposing Simba, it would mean that they'd have to kill Kovu, who at this point is her last brother left and one of the only two family members she still has. If they switched sides, then there was a chance she could prevent what happened to Nuka happening to Zira or Kovu--who would have been more important to her than avenging Scar. She tried to convince Zira to switch as well, by saying what little she said. If Zira had seen sense, then ultimately Vitani's actions would have done nothing but guarantee the safety of her remaining relatives. I've always seen Vitani as being more intelligent than vicious, possibly because I can relate to her so well, but it just wouldn't make sense for her to keep fighting at that point from my perspective, as she would have thought about the potential that Kovu and/or Zira could die in the battle.

Yes, it was quick and rushed, but in a movie like this it had to be. No one would have complained if it had happened during a recess of fighting when Kovu and Kiara had returned, talked to their family members outside the heat of battle, and come to a consensus, leaving Zira to attempt an assassination. Well--that's essentially what this was. The fighting had temporarily stopped when Kiara and Kovu showed up. No one was actively fighting. Simba and Zira were looking menacing towards one another and preparing to fight again, but there was no actual fighting going on when they showed up. Adrenaline in the others (such as Vitani) would have gone down by the time they jumped in, and Simba is not as heartless as Zira so he will not keep fighting with his daughter in the way.

They didn't exactly have the time to make it look believable, because kids get bored after about 90 minutes, you know.

[Regulus]

[quote="Julie Skywalker"]IIt was better than 1.5[/quote]

That's debatable. 1.5 has more fart jokes...

In my opinion, fart jokes >>>>>>> Kovu and Kiara.

[Captain Cupcake]

Aside from the fact that the whole Outsider concept felt contrived and undermines the whole struggle at the end of the original film, I think what really killed TLKII for me was just how sterile it all felt. The voice acting is delivered so halfheartedly by most of the cast, and the dialogue is so stiff that it doesn't come across as organic and natural at all. It's just... banal.

Every questionable idea or minor plot hole would have been easier to swallow if the characters were actually entertaining and felt real, but ultimately, everything just came off as hollow and rendered the already predictable storyline even less compelling. Even the songs are devoid of any fun and/or memorability save for the opening one, which wasn't even originally composed for TLKII but yanked from merchandise made for the first movie.

In the end, TLKII felt less like a real film and more like someone's poor fanfiction getting mixed up with the sequel's real screenplay, somehow getting the green light to be made into a DTV movie.

[Ravvij]

{Post deleted for personal reasons]

[Ravvij]

[Post deleted for personal reasons]

[Regulus]

[quote="Ravvij"]Well, Julie... all I have to say is that you've got problems and I'll leave it at that. [/quote]

Really, dude? Someone on a lion king forum has problems for having a personal attachment to a lion king movie? Really? Do you seriously not understand how foolish that is? It is not in your place to say that, and you should indeed be sorry.

You may disagree about the merits of SP, but you have to be completely out of your mind to think that someone has problems because they like something you don't. That is the very epitome of narrow-mindedness. Don't be that guy.

And besides, this is a lion king forum. Why would anyone be here if they didn't have some personal attachment to any of the films? You're a new member here, but I can assure you that you're not going to start off on friendly terms with anyone after criticizing other member's love for the films. Get real, man. Don't be a troll.

[juhouh]

Why do people even care about that is it a rip off or not. It's a great movie after all but not nearly as good as the first one. Still 100 times better than The Lion King 1½

[TomCat]

......................

[Carl]

[quote="TomCat"]The first one, followed Campbell´s "Hero´s Journey" while in the second one, was just a imcomplete "Romeo and Juliet" rip off...[/quote]
Rip off is the wrong term here. It was intentionally loosely based on Romeo & Juliet, in the same way that the first movie was based on Hamlet. Choosing R&J was logical as far as sticking to the Shakespearian theme, as those are some of Shakespeare's most famous plays. Unfortunately the impact wasn't as good as it could have been, since children have trouble dealing with the main characters dying.