Would this be a worthy succesor if...

[EdtheHyena]

I haven't seen this one in full, but from what I can tell it stays fairly true to the tone of the original, something the third doesn't really. It seems popular---people, from what I can tell, don't have too much against the storyline, and Kovu seems to be a popular character.

So...it seems all that's missing, really, is the original animation. If the movie was to have that...would we even consider this sequel anything but as good as the first?

Have fun discussing.

[Carl]

While I do like Simba's Pride, as my avatar and signature often suggest, it is nowhere near as good as the first. The animation from the original would not change that for me because my biggest problems with the sequel come from the characters and lack of depth in the plot.

First issue: SIMBA. That's right, you heard me correctly. I like Simba and all, but in SP, he is not like himself in my opinion. I can see where some of his new behaviors and mannerisms could have come from, but overall he seems like a different character. He's very stupid in some scenes, imo.

Second issue: Nala's lack of screen time. It has always irked me that she didn't have a bigger role. It was almost like they made the film, then realized they hadn't used one of the main characters and just quickly chucked her into a few scenes.

Third issue: Kiara's personality. I still like her somehow, but she's too much of a spoiled brat until later in the movie... as in, practically the end.

Fourth issue: Zira's purpose. She's obsessed with Scar, but officially she was nothing but a follower of his. Her cubs aren't his, she wasn't helping him in the battle at Pride Rock before his death (best theory there is that she was out hunting or doing something else). The other Outsiders were obviously not loyal to him because they flipped sides at a moment's notice at the end, so it doesn't make sense for them all to have been exiled as followers of Scar. Additionally, I can't see Simba casting them all aside without committing a crime, loyal to Scar or not. But Zira is so dedicated to this lion who wasn't even her mate that she can't be reasoned with. This is dumb, imo. This stuff should have been elaborated on instead of just left so vague.

Fifth issue: I like the Romeo and Juliet play and I like the idea of basing the movie on it. However, Romeo's family were the less cruel and more understanding ones, it was one of Romeo's crew that was killed by Tibalt that caused problems and in SP... Kovu is Romeo and Nuka is the one killed by "Tibalt." Tibalt was a major antagonist, and Simba acquired the role of Tibalt and Mr. Capulet. Since Simba is supposed to be the good guy, he should have been given the role of Montague, not a combined Tibalt/Capulet. Some of this may not be 100% accurate R&J info cos it's been ages since I've read or watched the play, but if I recall correctly, it is.

Sixth issue: The named Outlanders don't get many scenes for character development. Villains should always be well developed, it makes the story more interesting.

Seventh issue: Timon, Pumbaa, and Zazu weren't like themselves.

Eighth issue: Nothing bad happened to the "good guys" for growth purposes. Kiara rebelled against her dad, a few people were hurt during war, but only Zira died, and no one, not even her surviving kids, cared. No one had to overcome some big thing like Simba did in the first film. It was almost like it wasn't a serious movie...

Ninth issue: The designs of the characters were changed. This is how long it takes for the animation to factor in for me.

Tenth issue: The score wasn't epic enough to make it as good as the first. Part of the emotional depth is created by the music.


So now I come to the conclusion of this post because those are all the things I can think of at the moment. It probably sounds like I hate SP, which is not true at all, but it does have major flaws as a movie and that is why I am more interested in SP fanfiction than fics for the original because in my opinion, SP needs supplemental works like that to be on par with the first film.

[TheLionPrince]

The answer is no. Simba's Pride suffers from a partially predictable storyline with some unexplained exposition for the purpose of making the antagonist, Zira, seem mysterious. In moviemaking, story is everything, and although the over-told Romeo & Juliet was used as the story basis, the problem doesn't lie there. In terms of the original movie, it used Hamlet, which has been adapted many times, but the filmmakers managed to create what seems like a new story out of it. With Simba's Pride, the second half followed the general structure of R&J, which audiences are overtly familiar with. So, the problem was partially the storyline, but mostly its execution. Not to mention, the story gets criticized by fans for inconsistencies or "plot holes" like Kovu and Kiara's ages and such. The characterization is a result of the storyline after it's been fleshed out by the filmmakers.

Although it would have been nice if the animation looked more like the original, it is the least of the film's problems. Even 1½ had better animation that resembled the original's, but it appears a majority of fans don't like it.

[quote="Julie Skywalker"]Fifth issue: I like the Romeo and Juliet play and I like the idea of basing the movie on it. However, Romeo's family were the less cruel and more understanding ones, it was one of Romeo's crew that was killed by Tibalt that caused problems and in SP... Kovu is Romeo and Nuka is the one killed by "Tibalt." Tibalt was a major antagonist, and Simba acquired the role of Tibalt and Mr. Capulet. Since Simba is supposed to be the good guy, he should have been given the role of Montague, not a combined Tibalt/Capulet. Some of this may not be 100% accurate R&J info cos it's been ages since I've read or watched the play, but if I recall correctly, it is.[/quote]

You're right; you're not entirely accurate. Tybalt is pretty much characterized as Nuka since both characters are short-tempered and longing for a fight with their counterpart family. This is notable when Nuka is angry that Kovu let Kiara go after Simba allows him to stay at Pride Rock. To me, Simba is a conglomerate of Lord Capulet (Juliette's father) whom thinks he knows what is best for her daughter, and Prince Escalus, who exiles Romeo from Verona.

[quote="Julie Skywalker"]Eighth issue: Nothing bad happened to the "good guys" for growth purposes. Kiara rebelled against her dad, a few people were hurt during war, but only Zira died, and no one, not even her surviving kids, cared. No one had to overcome some big thing like Simba did in the first film. It was almost like it wasn't a serious movie...[/quote]

Eh, there was a short scene when Kovu is sobbing over her mother's demise although it was actually a reverse shot of Kovu on Pride Rock.

And I felt Simba overcame his prejudice against the Outsiders when he finally recognized the meaning of "We are One". It can be interpreted in the nightmare sequence it stemmed from his hatred of Scar killing Mufasa, and presumably he took it out on Zira and the Outsiders.

[Carl]

[quote="TheLionPrince"]You're right; you're not entirely accurate. Tybalt is pretty much characterized as Nuka since both characters are short-tempered and longing for a fight with their counterpart family. This is notable when Nuka is angry that Kovu let Kiara go after Simba allows him to stay at Pride Rock. To me, Simba is a conglomerate of Lord Capulet (Juliette's father) whom thinks he knows what is best for her daughter, and Prince Escalus, who exiles Romeo from Verona.[/quote]
Well whoops. At any rate I felt the role assigned to Simba was not the correct one.

[quote]Eh, there was a short scene when Kovu is sobbing over her mother's demise although it was actually a reverse shot of Kovu on Pride Rock.

And I felt Simba overcame his prejudice against the Outsiders when he finally recognized the meaning of "We are One". It can be interpreted in the nightmare sequence it stemmed from his hatred of Scar killing Mufasa, and presumably he took it out on Zira and the Outsiders.[/quote]

He only looked like that briefly though, and then it was gone. There was no character development from it like there was for Simba when Mufasa died. And as for Simba overcoming his prejudice, yeah, that did happen, and it was a good thing, but it's not the same kind of thing I'm talking about. There was no decent internal conflict in this film imo. Yeah Kovu struggled with switching sides and Simba struggled with accepting the others, but it was too rushed for any of that to seem like real growth, like, what I mean is, those things didn't add a dimension of depth to the story.

It was like, Kiara changed their minds much too quickly. She hangs out with Kovu a bit and he suddenly doesn't wanna help his mom anymore. She looks at Simba and goes "we are one," and he just suddenly drops the thing he's held on to the whole film. It seemed... almost faked, if that makes sense.

[TheLionPrince]

[quote="Julie Skywalker"]He only looked like that briefly though, and then it was gone. There was no character development from it like there was for Simba when Mufasa died. And as for Simba overcoming his prejudice, yeah, that did happen, and it was a good thing, but it's not the same kind of thing I'm talking about. There was no decent internal conflict in this film imo. Yeah Kovu struggled with switching sides and Simba struggled with accepting the others, but it was too rushed for any of that to seem like real growth, like, what I mean is, those things didn't add a dimension of depth to the story.[/quote]

Ah, now I see what you mean. Although, Simba has an internal conflict with trying to measure up his idealization of Mufasa. Granted, they only touched on it for less than a minute when he is "seeking counsel from the Great Kings" along with Simba's reaction to "You will never be Mufasa", it was never fleshed out. It was resolved when Mufasa congratulated him with "Well done, my son." I would revise my last post on Simba's Pride definitely having some good moments for character development, but it felt rushed. However, this coincides with my argument that the story wasn't executed well enough so I'll leave where it is.

[quote="Julie Skywalker"]It was like, Kiara changed their minds much too quickly. She hangs out with Kovu a bit and he suddenly doesn't wanna help his mom anymore. She looks at Simba and goes "we are one," and he just suddenly drops the thing he's held on to the whole film. It seemed... almost faked, if that makes sense.[/quote]

About your point on Simba dropping his prejudice of the Outsiders so suddenly, it's most likely because in his vision, "We are one" meant his pride along with Kiara and himself were one with the Circle of Life, and in order for Kiara to find her place, she had to learn what it means for herself one day. Now, as a young adult, Kiara learned the true meaning which meant to bring her pride and the Outsiders into one unified pride when she discovered "her other half".

Again, Simba's Pride had some good story concepts to boost that you may have think for yourself, but was faulty with fleshed out character development among other things.

[Carl]

[quote="Julie Skywalker"]only Zira died, and no one, not even her surviving kids, cared. No one had to overcome some big thing like Simba did in the first film.[/quote]

I don't know how I let this happen. It should be only Zira and Nuka died, and while there were reactions to their deaths, they weren't life changing in the way that Mufasa's was for Simba, or in anyway for that matter. Basically everyone seemed to put those behind them quickly and those both were losses for the villains, not the good guys, so it didn't provide them with any growth and the deaths were wasted potential for added character depth.

That's what I meant. Well, if that cleared it up any. Oh well.

[CalmSurrender]

I enjoyed the movie the first time I saw it but as a big TLK fan the more I thought about it the more it bothered me.
I don't think clearer animation could save it.
The storyline is all over the place, If Kovu isn't Scar's son who is he, why does he wonder if Scar is a great king of the past watching over him, why does he see Scar in himself?
In my opinion they should have had him as Scar's son and dropped the love story, they could have done a family story very well. Simba learns to let go of the past and be the uncle (or cousin) to Kovu that Scar never was to him etc

Nala is a total non character in the movie and all she does is smirk at Simba from under her eyelids, it's a shame they didn't do more with her really.

Timon and Pumbaa, their characters bother me the most, it's almost like they are afraid of Simba!!
They are the ones who took him and raised him and now he's bossing them around? Not cool. Not cool at all.

[EdtheHyena]

Personally, I think the series is a more worthy succersor just because the hyenas are in it. There, I said it. I know you're gonna hate me for it, but LK is just not good without the hyenas.

[PrincessKiara]

For me personally, the animation isn`t an issue. I think SP is a good sequel. Sure it has its flaws, but I still enjoy it, and I`m not too bothered by the animation/colours being different from the first. The two films were made by different people, and it`s mostly hand-drawn, so making them in identical styles would be pretty much impossible.

[Ninaroja]

The animation isn't my biggest qualm, either. As far as Disney sequels go, SP's animation is actually pretty good.

The story is a major reason as to why I really don't like SP very much. It is very bland and predictable; from the start it is obvious that Kiara and Kovu are going to get together. This was pretty obvious in the first movie, too, but it was more of a subplot, rather than the main focus (that being Simba's emotional journey to facing up to his past etc.) As a film fan I relish a great story, and if a movie is lacking in that it is very difficult for me to look past that, no matter how good any other elements of it are.