why do you belive kopa's real?

[Pixie]

[StarlightLioness]

As I posted on the thread "Rumors of the Cub at the end of TLK":

When SP first came out, I was under the impression that the cub was just Kiara. Sure the books said that Simba had a son, but I just chalked it up to "well, they didn't expect a sequel when the books came out, so it's just a minor error.

Then, once I got TLK6NA box set, there was Kopa. And I kind of started to think that maybe the cub WAS Kopa. Certainly, Simba and Nala are older when Kiara is presented (as compared to the presented cub at the end of TLK). Also, Kiara is by FAR an older cub than "Fluffy" is. (Watch when she swipes at the butterfly or whatever - her expression is very mature for a cub). And little hints in the dialogue made me think that the intial cub was Kopa and that he was murdered.

Zazu talks about "murderous" outsiders. So who did they kill? Sarabi maybe but it could lean towards a murdered Prince too. Simba talks about how you "can't turn your back" on the outsiders. Again, it makes me think that maybe the Outlanders were responsible for his first cub's death. When Kiara asks "why?" Simba says "never mind." Kiara is too young at the time to know about the brother she never knew and it is too painful for Simba to get into anyway. Simba is also wildly overprotective of Kiara. Fatherly instinct? Maybe. Or does he fear losing another cub. When Zira and Simba first meet when Kovu and Kiara are playing, she pushes her son to him offering "if you need your pound of flesh." Why would Simba demand such a high price of those caught in the Pridelands? Why not just chase them off when they break their exile? Is he THAT harsh of a ruler or does he have a good reason to demand such a repayment? Sure, you can argue that he fears exactly what Zira has in mind (that is a hostile and deadly overthrow). And I am sure that such thoughts ARE a part of Simba's actions. But it seems to me that that cannot possibly be the entire reason why Simba acts/says what he does. There must be another reason.

And so, I am now of the mindset that the cub at the end of TLK is, in fact, Kopa. I do not for one second believe that it is Kiara.

I also agree that Kiara was written as a female in SP to a) make SP a different movie (father-daugther as opposed to another father-son romp) and to b) appeal more to female viewers (especially considering how love-heavy the movie is).

[Pixie]

[quote="StarlightLioness"]When SP first came out, I was under the impression that the cub was just Kiara. Sure the books said that Simba had a son, but I just chalked it up to "well, they didn't expect a sequel when the books came out, so it's just a minor error". [/quote]
That is correct. The team who made the books had no relation to the second film. The people who made SP probably had no idea who Kopa was.

[quote="StarlightLioness"]Certainly, Simba and Nala are older when Kiara is presented (as compared to the presented cub at the end of TLK). Also, Kiara is by FAR an older cub than "Fluffy" is. [/quote]
The only reason the two designs are different is because the team who made the first film and the team who made the second film had a different idea in mind. I personally prefer the original design, simply because Kiara is too orange in the second film. Simba and Nala were purposely made to look older. They didn't care that they looked different in the first film. Just because they made a mistake doesn't mean the cubs are different, it just means that the animators were lazy. It's like they didn't watch the final scene in the first movie. It annoys me too. But it is a mistake. Not a clue or a conspiracy.

[quote="StarlightLioness"]And little hints in the dialogue made me think that the intial cub was Kopa and that he was murdered.Zazu talks about "murderous" outsiders. So who did they kill? [/quote]
Mufasa. Scar was the leader of the outsiders, and he killed Mufasa. The outsiders followed Scar, and therefore Zazu says they are murderous. It is abit harsh, yes, but that is what he meant. If there was another cub involved, it would have been mentioned. And Simba was all weird about it towards Kiara because he didn't want her to know about Scar yet.

[quote="StarlightLioness"]When Zira and Simba first meet when Kovu and Kiara are playing, she pushes her son to him offering "if you need your pound of flesh." Why would Simba demand such a high price of those caught in the Pridelands? [/quote]
That is an old saying.
[quote]Meaning:
Something which is owed that is ruthlessly required to be paid back.
Origin:
This of course derives from Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice, 1596. The insistence by Shylock of the payment of Antonio's flesh is the central plot device of the play:
"SHYLOCK:
The pound of flesh which I demand of him Is deerely bought, 'tis mine, and I will haue it."
The figurative use of the phrase to refer to any lawful but nevertheless unreasonable recompense dates to the late 18th century.[/quote]
Therefore Zira is saying that Simba is being unreasonable. It's quite simple.

[quote="StarlightLioness"]And so, I am now of the mindset that the cub at the end of TLK is, in fact, Kopa. I do not for one second believe that it is Kiara. [/quote]
So tell me, where is he? Where in the movie does any character say "Kopa was Simba's first cub"?

To me it feels like people who demand that Kopa was in the first film and there are hints and all that jazz forget that it is just a movie. Mistakes were made, designs were changed, but there was no other cub. By all means, make fan fics and pics about him, but don't say that he was in the film when he wasn't.

[lionkingfreak]

[quote="Pixielicious"][quote="StarlightLioness"]When SP first came out, I was under the impression that the cub was just Kiara. Sure the books said that Simba had a son, but I just chalked it up to "well, they didn't expect a sequel when the books came out, so it's just a minor error". [/quote]
That is correct. The team who made the books had no relation to the second film. The people who made SP probably had no idea who Kopa was.

[quote="StarlightLioness"]Certainly, Simba and Nala are older when Kiara is presented (as compared to the presented cub at the end of TLK). Also, Kiara is by FAR an older cub than "Fluffy" is. [/quote]
The only reason the two designs are different is because the team who made the first film and the team who made the second film had a different idea in mind. I personally prefer the original design, simply because Kiara is too orange in the second film. Simba and Nala were purposely made to look older. They didn't care that they looked different in the first film. Just because they made a mistake doesn't mean the cubs are different, it just means that the animators were lazy. It's like they didn't watch the final scene in the first movie. It annoys me too. But it is a mistake. Not a clue or a conspiracy.

[quote="StarlightLioness"]And little hints in the dialogue made me think that the intial cub was Kopa and that he was murdered.Zazu talks about "murderous" outsiders. So who did they kill? [/quote]
Mufasa. Scar was the leader of the outsiders, and he killed Mufasa. The outsiders followed Scar, and therefore Zazu says they are murderous. It is abit harsh, yes, but that is what he meant. If there was another cub involved, it would have been mentioned. And Simba was all weird about it towards Kiara because he didn't want her to know about Scar yet.

[quote="StarlightLioness"]When Zira and Simba first meet when Kovu and Kiara are playing, she pushes her son to him offering "if you need your pound of flesh." Why would Simba demand such a high price of those caught in the Pridelands? [/quote]
That is an old saying.
[quote]Meaning:
Something which is owed that is ruthlessly required to be paid back.
Origin:
This of course derives from Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice, 1596. The insistence by Shylock of the payment of Antonio's flesh is the central plot device of the play:
"SHYLOCK:
The pound of flesh which I demand of him Is deerely bought, 'tis mine, and I will haue it."
The figurative use of the phrase to refer to any lawful but nevertheless unreasonable recompense dates to the late 18th century.[/quote]
Therefore Zira is saying that Simba is being unreasonable. It's quite simple.

[quote="StarlightLioness"]And so, I am now of the mindset that the cub at the end of TLK is, in fact, Kopa. I do not for one second believe that it is Kiara. [/quote]
So tell me, where is he? Where in the movie does any character say "Kopa was Simba's first cub"?

To me it feels like people who demand that Kopa was in the first film and there are hints and all that jazz forget that it is just a movie. Mistakes were made, designs were changed, but there was no other cub. By all means, make fan fics and pics about him, but don't say that he was in the film when he wasn't.[/quote]
i agrree.

[SimbasMate]

[KopsTheTerminator]

Maybe I should start hating SP like that...

[WildSimba]

Kopa is real, there is no denying that. All that can be denied is whether he's official in the universe of TLK. He is definately Semi-Canon at least, because he appears in a series of books, with Disney's logo on it. To say he was made from fan-fictions would be wrong.

[Moka]

There's a lot of stuff that needs to be explained if the cub at the end of The Lion King is Kopa. So much that it starts to become a conspiracy. Why wasn't Kopa mentioned at all in SP if he existed in the movies? etc.

All that needs to be explained if the cub at the end of The Lion King is Kiara is that the creators of SP were lazy, which they were. The animation and timelines were off because they didn't seem to care enough to make them spot-on for hardcore fans.

So it depends on whether you believe in this conspiracy or if you believe the creators of SP were just lazy, because there is evidence for both points of view.

[KopsTheTerminator]

Oh god. GUYS.

NO1CURR. Nobody could care less if Kopa is official/canon/sub-canon/whatever. Even if you prove or disprove that Kopa is real, nothing is going to change. I'm SICK of it. People come in the forum to peacefully discuss about the TLK universe, not start outraging flame wars over a book character. You can assume what you want but just don't start that argument again because it's the most pointless debate in the entire fandom. Calm down, geez.

And Moka makes a REALLY good point in the above post. The new directors didn't really care about the books, the comics, the timelines and whatever; they just wanted to satisfy some fans and get their bucks. End of story.

[WildSimba]

[quote="Kopa23"]Oh god. GUYS.

NO1CURR. Nobody could care less if Kopa is official/canon/sub-canon/whatever. Even if you prove or disprove that Kopa is real, nothing is going to change. I'm SICK of it. People come in the forum to peacefully discuss about the TLK universe, not start outraging flame wars over a book character. You can assume what you want but just don't start that argument again because it's the most pointless debate in the entire fandom. Calm down, geez.

And Moka makes a REALLY good point in the above post. The new directors didn't really care about the books, the comics, the timelines and whatever; they just wanted to satisfy some fans and get their bucks. End of story.[/quote]

+1

So really, in the end, what exactly are we fighting for? It's a cartoon. No one cares. Just enjoy it for what it's for, TLK is a disney movie. How "philosophical" can you get about a Disney Cartoon?