The restriction of freedom of speech in colleges

[DGFone]

[quote="Regulus"]
Which ties back to my original point. This regressive culture that IMNW is describing is the antithesis of liberalism. After centuries of fighting and protest to maintain the right to freedom of speech, more and more younger people are looking to limit it. I think it's absolutely silly.[/quote]

Perfect. Just... absolutely perfect. I've thought that for such a long time, and regressive liberal is a rather fitting term. The extreme left is just about as conservative as the extreme right.[/quote]

It's called the horseshoe theory. As I told my parents: What is the difference between fascism (extreme right), and communism (extreme left)? One fights for the fatherland, and the other for the motherland. Want proof? Just take a look at how similar Hitler and Stalin are. They are practically next door neighbors.

[zerodix]

since an university is a place you go to develop you knowledge, you should be able to handle other opinions and visions in a neutral way, without getting triggered by it. an open mind can grow, if you are not open for other people's point of view, just by rejecting that view, you will also reject those people by not trying to understand their motivations. that would be a sad thing, it would make people turning against each other.
if you understand your opposites, you have learned to take another look at things. Nobody is perfect and everybody is growing by learning.
In the end, that is wat colleges/universities are for, right?

[UncoordinatedPisces]

The only thing I'm worried about in uni is that I'll turn up and there'll be a bunch of social justice nuts who will prevent me from listening to speakers from all ends of the political spectrum. I'm just sick of this culture spreading among our generation accusing everyone of citing hate speech, not being PC, demanding safe spaces etc just let people decide whether they agree or disagree with something.

I know I'm not going to avoid SJWs at uni but hopefully they're rampant attempt at stumping freedom of speech will be stopped.

[Amur_Tiger]

[quote="DGFone"][quote="Regulus"]
Which ties back to my original point. This regressive culture that IMNW is describing is the antithesis of liberalism. After centuries of fighting and protest to maintain the right to freedom of speech, more and more younger people are looking to limit it. I think it's absolutely silly.[/quote]

Perfect. Just... absolutely perfect. I've thought that for such a long time, and regressive liberal is a rather fitting term. The extreme left is just about as conservative as the extreme right.[/quote]

It's called the horseshoe theory. As I told my parents: What is the difference between fascism (extreme right), and communism (extreme left)? One fights for the fatherland, and the other for the motherland. Want proof? Just take a look at how similar Hitler and Stalin are. They are practically next door neighbors.[/quote]

I don't really buy the horseshoe theory, in no small part because it posits that all politics occur along a single axis ( left vs right ) instead of the two-axis model that introduces the authoritarian vs democratic axis. I think that both Hitler and Stalin had their own reasons for wanting absolute authority that had nothing to do with how left or right they were.

In how it applies to the whole regressives thing, I think we're giving these people far too much credit in considering their point of view a 'thesis' anti or otherwise. That involves rational arguments of some sort and regressives are pretty short on this. What I think this is is the ultimate culmination of identity politics on the left, and the division of the media along partisan lines. If you already go to websites and TV channels that repeat your beliefs to you and surround you with reassurances of how right you are about... whatever then it's not a big leap to start trying to shut down voices that speak up for something different. This has a lot more to do with the complete and utter breakdown of political discourse then any real desire among regressives or progressives to be authoritarian, even if they ended up resorting to tactics that echo authoritarianism out of reflex.

Aggravating all of this is the fact that establishment voices on the left and right want to focus on identity politics while making few commitments on policy, leaving that to be determined by their doners. This leaves voters on the left and right frustrated and more excited ( at the behest of the establishment ) about identity politics because it's a cheap way to gain votes.

As a whole I don't think this is as dangerous a trend as some have tried to show it as, push comes to shove colleges don't have a lot of power to restrict freedom of speech outside of the campus and the internet will provide plenty of ways to voice that. Of course this does mean keeping a sharp eye on government/corporate attempts to fiddle with net neutrality or otherwise censor things online. Voices will be heard, even if the education of those put through these colleges will be negatively impacted. If anything colleges should be trying to teach skills on how to talk to and handle people with opposing views in a responsible manner given the likelihood that you'll run into it online.

[Gaze]

I've not been wanting to touch this thread because I think the topic is getting very tired and played out, and I don't usually see the point in having discussions like this online, but the subject has been coming up in my life every now and then over the past few months. so I might return at some point to make a full post....if I feel up to it, haha.

for now, I wanted to at least start by addressing this particular post, because I think it brings up a number of talking points/buzzwords I can quickly address ---
[quote="Amy"]The only thing I'm worried about in uni is that I'll turn up and there'll be a bunch of social justice nuts who will prevent me from listening to speakers from all ends of the political spectrum. I'm just sick of this culture spreading among our generation accusing everyone of citing hate speech, not being PC, demanding safe spaces etc just let people decide whether they agree or disagree with something.

I know I'm not going to avoid SJWs at uni but hopefully they're rampant attempt at stumping freedom of speech will be stopped.[/quote]
I think the fact that you're actually worried about encountering this supports my thoughts that the issue is being completely over-exaggerated. people seem to express anger and concern about "social justice nuts" getting in their way more than it actually happens.
I've found my own personal college experiences to be very interesting in this way. the school I go to has been known by locals as "the hippie school" ever since it was first founded in the 1960s. for its whole existence, it's been known as a place where you can find a lot of "liberals" and leftists, protesters, and what-have-you. long story short, it is basically the exact sort of establishment where non-social-justice-minded people would expect incidents like this to be running rampant. but guess what? they aren't. never heard of speakers being banned, never encountered anyone requesting trigger warnings, and the one time I had a professor who used trigger warnings of her own volition, I only saw them taken advantage of once: when we watched a film with an unnecessarily graphic rape scene, and a few people chose to leave the room during it - one of whom had already seen the film all the way through before, and one of whom was a 30-40+ year old rape survivor. doesn't seem very harmful to me.

in fact, what DOES happen a little too frequently on campus is anonymous people putting up posters with threatening messages against black students, tearing down posters advertising events for trans students, and in one recent event, even physically threatening students belonging to marginalized groups.....but I sure don't see people speaking out about things like that as often as they complain about "safe spaces" and "SJWs"!

obviously, my experience isn't the same as everyone else's. but I find it very interesting that this particular school almost never seems to have the problems that people worried about "censorship" are afraid of, despite the fact that it would seem to be a breeding ground for such things. not to mention that it has been pointed out that trigger warnings and such things are not as widespread on college campuses as they are made out to be.

do extreme examples happen in some places? yes, of course. but naturally, these examples are focused upon as if they represent a massive problem. and I find it strange and unfair, even with the extreme examples, that the students involved are immediately dismissed as infantile, over-sensitive, coddled.....etc. no thought is ever given to why they feel they way they feel, it's just automatically taken for granted that their thoughts and feelings are foolish and not worth listening to at all. if people will make no attempt to see where these students are coming from, of course they'll immediately be written off as irrational.

I'm also interested that you brought up the term "PC." I think people who use this term when talking about social-justice-minded youth (or anyone in social justice circles, really) are often accidentally revealing that they don't actually know much about the causes being fought for. being "PC" is not the goal. political correctness is very surface-level, IMHO. it's about finding out which terms are generally considered offensive and which aren't, so you can pick the "right" one and not look bad. it's about avoiding conflict and making sure you look like a good citizen.

but that isn't what we should be striving for - we should be going deeper than that. we should be looking to learn why certain terms are outdated or insensitive. what is the history behind certain words and phrases? who invented them? what have they been historically used to do? is there a new alternative, and if so, why was this alternative chosen and who chose it? that's the kind of stuff you should be wondering when you hear a slur, or if you're told that something you're saying sounds ignorant.

no one is forcing you to stop saying certain things, but rather trying to get you to understand why they don't need to be said. WORDS HAVE POWER. it is selfish to deny the strength of that power in the name of avoiding "censorship." if we truly examine the origins and connotations of oppressive speech, we shouldn't need to be censored, we will probably simply want to stop using such terms because we have no interest in feeding their power or being a part of their damaging legacy.

and while on the subject of language, I also find it pretty ridiculous to see the term "SJW" being used non-ironically. I'm sorry, but I really can't take that term seriously. it has become completely meaningless. people act as though social-justice-minded people are a hivemind, when in reality, there are all kinds of different opinions and viewpoints one can have within a certain issue. but if you care about that issue at all.....you're suddenly a SJW. doesn't matter exactly what you have to say about it or how your opinion varies, someone's probably gonna call you a SJW. this completely trivializes and interrupts discussions of social justice. it makes it so that, in some circles, you can't bring up any topic that might be "too liberal" or else you're going to be immediately dismissed as a SJW. this annoying internet phrase turns discussions of SERIOUS issues that are deeply rooted in our history and society into jokes.
"SJWs" are accused of being keyboard activists who will never do anything meaningful or incite any real change because they apparently only exist online and no one in the "real world" will listen to them. and yet, at the same time, you've got people worried that "SJWs" are causing such extreme influence in the "real world" that they are ruining everything from college environments to video gaming. the meaning of the phrase becomes unclear in this respect.

as for the "demanding of safe spaces", this one has always confused me. I don't want to go very deep into this right now - maybe later - but I think that the "safe space" thing is very 'low-level discourse' that isn't very realistic or relevant in the grand scheme of things. however, what confuses me is why people perceive it such a terrible thing. I think it should be shrugged off as a pleasant idea that just isn't realistic, rather than regarded as some sort of evil. people who express concern about "echo chambers" are suspicious to me, as I doubt they really care so much about the "wellbeing" of people within these alleged echo chambers. they're probably just irritated by the idea and are looking for a reason to argue against it. not to mention that the "echo chamber" idea again reinforces the false idea of social-justice-minded people as a hivemind......

there are, however, smaller-scale examples of "safe spaces" that I find to be both realistic and positive, but I don't feel like going into that right now.

people are welcome to "decide whether they agree or disagree with something." but you can't just expect people to stay quiet when they are fighting against serious, deeply-rooted oppressions. it's more than just an opinion. it's peoples' lives and wellbeings. opinions are useless if you never make them known. that's what activism is for....to make things known. you should be glad that things are known to you so you can make that decision of agreement or disagreement. but if you have a problem with it being too "in your face," maybe you should consider why people NEED to be so in-your-face about it.

long story short --- the trivialization of important social issues is a million times more of a problem than getting worked up about "censorship" that isn't actually harming you in any way, IMHO.

[KopsTheTerminator]

^ Welp. /thread.

It's true that SJWs outside of their Tumblr lairs are kind of scarce, I more often see anti-SJWs ranting about SJWs than actual SJWs on the internet (and IRL I don't see either group). To think safe spaces and trigger warnings and limiting freedom of speech in colleges will become the norm is a major overreaction if you ask me. Not that it's not harmful to be overly sensitive (and I do get a kick out of seeing SJWs called out on their BS at times lol) but both groups can act like complete overdramatic imbeciles.

[Gemini]

^ I'm with Kops on this one. I get what you guys mean in theory, but I feel like in my normal day-to-day life I don't really ever encounter this sort of thing (and I go to the University of California, by the way...). Most of the very "social-justice-y" things tend to be in certain circles and certain groups, and if you don't go out looking for it, you're unlikely to find it. Rather like college parties... do they happen? Yes. But are they destroying all colleges as we know it in a wave of terror that is going to cause horrible ideals to infect modern society? ... Not really.

If you just mind your own business and go to class and get internships and work and eat and do homework and maybe play guitar or frisbee or hang out with friends in your off-time (y'know, normal college student things), you're not exactly going to come into contact with a room of screaming feminazis or protests or people chanting for safe-spaces. It's just not a thing that normally happens, at least at this school. Now, if you're involved in a bunch of student unions or clubs or things of that nature specifically for that? Sure. But your average joe isn't going to see most of that.

Honestly, in the entire first year I've been here, I've seen like... one student march, one BLM banner and some people protesting to remove the Chancellor for something entirely unrelated to social justice (and I'm pretty sure she was actually investigated and removed though I'm not entirely sure). Either way, none of those things affected me, really. They never disrupted my routine of going to class or learning.

Granted, I do go to what is likely the most "moderate" UC... but still, it's a UC...

The closest I've ever come to this sort of thing was like... one diversity training I had to go to. But that was only because I've been officially hired by this school for a position on this campus, so I can understand why. And it honestly wasn't even that bad, I feel like most of those things are pretty self-explanatory anyway. Just don't be a dick to people who are different and try to understand where they are coming from and tbh those are things I (as well as most decently empathetic people) already do so not much to really see there.

Also, to clarify. I don't really have anything against social justice. I do have a problem with the way that some people online tend to bastardize it into a movement to repress opinions and inflict some kind of payback on cis-white-males and etc... but really, I don't see that all too much around here. That's not what social justice is supposed to be about, anyway.

tl;dr I think some people do go overboard but at the end of the day these people that you see tend to be a loud minority. College campuses as we know it aren't experiencing collapse on a large scale, at least as far as I know, and nothing in my classes has been edited in this way as to oppress differing opinions. I think most people are overreacting on both sides. As a college student myself, I don't personally see what the big fuss is about.

EDIT: Read Sadiki's post and she covered everything much more thoughtfully and in much more depth than I did. lmao But basically I agree.

[KopsTheTerminator]

[quote="GeminiGemelo"]Also, to clarify. I don't really have anything against social justice. I do have a problem with the way that some people online tend to bastardize it into a movement to repress opinions and inflict some kind of payback on cis-white-males and etc... but really, I don't see that all too much around here. That's not what social justice is supposed to be about, anyway.[/quote]

This. This this this this this.

Wanting social justice is what has always driven society forward. Claiming you're an oppressed leafkin whose safespace is being invaded by opposing views or encouraging transtrenderism or being triggered from pictures of fire or something is making a sick joke out of legitimate issues faced by PTSD sufferers, rape survivors and dysphoric transgenders and making them sound like a clown circus rather than people suffering. As Regulus said... that's a "regressive left" because all it does is takes us backwards.

Also, personally I agree with 'trigger warnings' but only for REALLY serious issues, such as graphic depictions of violence, rape or suicide that can be legitimately upsetting even for average people (imagine how legitimate trauma sufferers must feel if it's upsetting to the average person).

[Carl]

So the crazy extreme stuff hasn't really gotten off the internet much. In that case I don't see an issue here. I just assumed my not seeing it had to do with living in a conservative area based on the way people were talking.

[KopsTheTerminator]

I don't know, I'd never encounter this sort of thing in Greece in my lifetime because it's a far more conservative society but even where I am now the most "progressive" thing I've seen is a few gay pride flags around (which made me pretty happy I admit as I'd never seen anything like it before).