Ridiculous Religion vs Absurd Atheism

[Regulus]

^ Which was exactly my point.

I believe that if a benevolent God existed, we wouldn't. That's because we don't deserve to live, as a species.

[SlayerOfLight]

But you forgot about the part that God originally created mankind perfect and sinless, and in his image, and not the way we are now. But nonetheless, God's mercy allows us to be forgiven for our sins, since God himself died for our sins on the cross even though he didn't have to. This was a completely selfless act by God, to be punished for the sins of his own creation.

[Woeler]

[quote="Nicholas"]@Regulus and Woeler:

The thing is, in God's eyes none of us are non-evil because we all have done something evil at least once in our lives. I'm pretty sure all of us ever thought something like: ''damn, I wish that idiot would get killed'' about someone we hate or don't like. This already makes you a murderer in your heart, even though you actually haven't committed the crime. If God were to whipe away all evil, then all of us would cease to exist besides only people like Hitler and Bin Laden. Because all of us have sinned and we all deserve to be punished. None but God is sinless.[/quote]
That comparison is rubbish and you know it. Comparing real crime with thought-crime is ridiculous. You keep escaping the fact that someone who can prevent evil, but isn't willing to prevent it is in fact evil. There is no logical way of getting around that, and there is certainly no scripture supporting anything beyond this.

Also None but God is sinless. Yet he created us in his own image. That seems to contradict itself. And don't tell me 'we were once different'. We weren't. The bible says the Earth is 4000 years old and we have enough evidence showing that at that time there was murder, war and violence.

And a question that bugs me. How do YOU know the way 'a God' views things? This stuff is in no holy book. These are just wild claims to escape the sharp teeth of logic and human reasoning. I'm not ashamed to say that I am arrogant, but to say that I know what 'the creator' of the universe thinks and wants are levels of arrogance that even I haven't touched.

We are all evil (For as far as our interpretations of morality go). We are all evil selfish creatures. And either God is one too, or he doesn't exist.

[SlayerOfLight]

[quote]That comparison is rubbish and you know it. Comparing real crime with thought-crime is ridiculous. You keep escaping the fact that someone who can prevent evil, but isn't willing to prevent it is in fact evil. There is no logical way of getting around that, and there is certainly no scripture supporting anything beyond this.[/quote]

I still have to disagree. If you truly want a person to die, then the only diffrence between an actual murder is that you don't commit the murder yourself. To us thoughts and deeds may not be such a big deal, I admit that. But to God it would be, if we assume he exists, since God would not only judge all of our deeds in life, but also the person we are in our hearts.

And like I said, if God was stopping all evil right now, every single person on earth would die. God doesn't count our sins, because a sin is a sin. He wouldn't be a fair ''god'' if he only punished Hitler for example and not us. I admit, even I look down at Hitler like you do. But to God we are not much diffrent from Hitler, because God cannot allow any sin to go unpunished, That's why he choose willingly and selflessly to sacrifice himself on the cross for our sins. (A story you shouldn't be unfamilar with after having (possibly) debated with many others of my kind.) God is merely watching humanity reaping what it has sown. Because by rebelling to God, we are responsible for all the evil that we do to ourselves.


[quote]Also None but God is sinless. Yet he created us in his own image. That seems to contradict itself.[/quote]

Mankind was created sinless. Only after sin came into the world, it was that only God remained sinless. Also, the supposed fact that we are created in the image of God doesn't mean that we are literally 100% like God himself but rather in terms that we, like him, are eternal because we have an eternal soul that does not die.

[quote]And don't tell me 'we were once different'. We weren't. The bible says the Earth is 4000 years old and we have enough evidence showing that at that time there was murder, war and violence.[/quote]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought our debate was about God's personality and nature (for if he WOULD exist) rather then physical evidence for his existance? It's fine by me if you don't believe in the bible, but I as a Christian do.

[quote]And a question that bugs me. How do YOU know the way 'a God' views things? This stuff is in no holy book. These are just wild claims to escape the sharp teeth of logic and human reasoning. I'm not ashamed to say that I am arrogant, but to say that I know what 'the creator' of the universe thinks and wants are levels of arrogance that even I haven't touched.[/quote]

See my previous statement. I am in no way escaping the ''sharp teeth of logic and human reasoning'' because I truly believe that God exists and that the bible is his word. Be free to call me names for that though, but that's my personal view. While I appreciate science in many ways, I simply do not think that science has all the answers, nor will I just simply take everything what National Geographic or Discovery Channel shoves down my throat, as a fact.

[Woeler]

[quote]If you truly want a person to die, then the only diffrence between an actual murder is that you don't commit the murder yourself.[/quote]
That's why it's not murder.
[quote] To us thoughts and deeds may not be such a big deal, I admit that. But to God it would be, if we assume he exists, since God would not only judge all of our deeds in life, but also the person we are in our hearts.[/quote]
So it's kinda like a celestial North-Korea.
[quote] And like I said, if God was stopping all evil right now, every single person on earth would die. God doesn't count our sins, because a sin is a sin. He wouldn't be a fair ''god'' if he only punished Hitler for example and not us. I admit, even I look down at Hitler like you do. But to God we are not much diffrent from Hitler, because God cannot allow any sin to go unpunished, That's why he choose willingly and selflessly to sacrifice himself on the cross for our sins. (A story you shouldn't be unfamilar with after having (possibly) debated with many others of my kind.) God is merely watching humanity reaping what it has sown. Because by rebelling to God, we are responsible for all the evil that we do to ourselves.[/quote]
Different version of the same argument.
Observation: There is evil in this world
It still means one of three things:
1 God is evil. He likes evil.
2 God doesn't prevent evil.
3 God can't prevent evil.
Conclusions
1 God is not all loving.
2 God doesn't give a damn about any of us.
3 God seems to be no God after all.
Even if we take your free will theory in mind we can still conclude that God is evil. God is all-knowing and therefore should have known that by giving the human race free will it would turn out to be disastrous.
To allow evil is to be evil. There is no way around it. One does not allow killing because one loves another.
[quote] Mankind was created sinless. Only after sin came into the world, it was that only God remained sinless. Also, the supposed fact that we are created in the image of God doesn't mean that we are literally 100% like God himself but rather in terms that we, like him, are eternal because we have an eternal soul that does not die.[/quote]
If God was a perfect being he would have created a world untouchable by sin, which he didn't.
[quote] Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought our debate was about God's personality and nature (for if he WOULD exist) rather then physical evidence for his existance? It's fine by me if you don't believe in the bible, but I as a Christian do.[/quote]
The only ''source'' used for the existence of God is the bible. For me to get in a position to use that source against what it is defending is an outstanding turn in a debate.
[quote] See my previous statement. I am in no way escaping the ''sharp teeth of logic and human reasoning'' because I truly believe that God exists and that the bible is his word. Be free to call me names for that though, but that's my personal view. While I appreciate science in many ways, I simply do not think that science has all the answers, nor will I just simply take everything what National Geographic or Discovery Channel shoves down my throat, as a fact.[/quote]
''Science doesn't have all the answers, therefore it must be God'' isn't reasoning. That is nonsense. I find it amusing that you don't 'just simply take' what discovery or ngc say, but you do 'just simply take' what a 2000 year old mistranslated third degree eyewitness account says.

[Regulus]

lol, this is almost amusing to me. You totally just proved my own point. One of my points, anyway.

The belief that God exists is actually a pretty big catalyst for all the horrible things that man does.

If you truly believe that thinking evil things is the same as doing evil things, you're lost. It feeds this erroneous notion that since no one is perfect, we don't need to try to be. It's the fallacious idea that we don't need to be on our best behavior, because we're all equal in God's eyes.

Just look at the news. People are murdered. People are raped. Hate crimes are everywhere, if you know where to look. Throughout history, some men have tortured others for their own sick pleasure. It happens.

I'm sorry, but no. Not all people are created equal. Not everyone deserves to live. I'm not going to try to argue that I'm superior to those people--I'm stating it as a fact. I am better than that, no question about it.

The belief that Hitler is no less of a person than any of us is the most absurd thing I've heard all day. After all, it was such beliefs, at the time, which allowed him to do what he did.

No. We need to be better than that. We can't control our feelings, but we can control whether or not we act on them. There is no legitimate excuse.

We should always strive to improve ourselves and become a better person. All too often, it is the direct effect of God himself, which gets in the way of that. The belief that he exists, whether he exists or not, holds us back.

[SlayerOfLight]

[quote]That's why it's not murder.[/quote]

No, but the person already committed murder in his/her heart. It are thoughts that lead into sin, therefore, the Christian God takes thoughts serious. I'll give another example. If a married husband looks at an unknown girl/woman with lust, then he already committed adultery in his heart too. That's the way how God would see it.

[quote]So it's kinda like a celestial North-Korea.[/quote]

I don't know where you got that idea from, but I'm not getting into that because the diffrence to me is too obvious. God gives us freedom of choice to either follow him or oppose him. In North Korea it's either you follow the president or you've earned a one-way ticket to camp 22.

[quote]Different version of the same argument.
Observation: There is evil in this world
It still means one of three things:
1 God is evil. He likes evil.
2 God doesn't prevent evil.
3 God can't prevent evil.
Conclusions
1 God is not all loving.
2 God doesn't give a damn about any of us.
3 God seems to be no God after all.
Even if we take your free will theory in mind we can still conclude that God is evil. God is all-knowing and therefore should have known that by giving the human race free will it would turn out to be disastrous.
To allow evil is to be evil. There is no way around it. One does not allow killing because one loves another.[/quote]

I see you're still holding on to the view that If a ''God'' exists, he would be evil and would be the creator of evil. It just wouldn't work that way. It is true that God is the creator of everything. However, evil itself is not even a ''thing'' like a rock, or water. You cannot have a jar of evil, because technically evil doesn't even exist. When a bad relationship exists between something good and something that opposes goodness, we call that good and evil, and it does not even require a God to create it. God only created goodness. Everything which opposes good, is what we came to know as ''evil''.

[quote]If God was a perfect being he would have created a world untouchable by sin, which he didn't.[/quote]

If a world untouchable by sin would exist, then that means we wouldn't be having a free will and we would all be robots programmed to do everything God wants.

[quote]''Science doesn't have all the answers, therefore it must be God'' isn't reasoning. That is nonsense. I find it amusing that you don't 'just simply take' what discovery or ngc say, but you do 'just simply take' what a 2000 year old mistranslated third degree eyewitness account says.[/quote]

I do take alot what National Geographic and Discovery says, but not just the whole evolution and creation related things. To me it personally makes more sense that a God created the universe and everything else, rather then everything else appearing out of nothing. But then again, it's all just faith. If everything in the bible seems too hard to believe to you, well then there's nothing I can say about it. I personally believe that I have came to know God by reading the bible, as I feel that the biblical depiction about God bears the most truth then any other religion.

@Regulus

[quote]The belief that Hitler is no less of a person than any of us is the most absurd thing I've heard all day. After all, it was such beliefs, at the time, which allowed him to do what he did.
[/quote]

I wasn't personally talking about my opinion on Hitler, but how God would view Hitler no diffrent then any of us, because we are all sinners. Obviously you should know that my ''human'' side deeply despises Hitler and all he stood for. Please, don't twist my statements in the future.

[Woeler]

[quote] No, but the person already committed murder in his/her heart. It are thoughts that lead into sin, therefore, the Christian God takes thoughts serious. I'll give another example. If a married husband looks at an unknown girl/woman with lust, then he already committed adultery in his heart too. That's the way how God would see it.[/quote]
Who said this and what source should I take this from besides you? And that's besides the fact that thoughtcrime is a victimless crime, just like blasphemy or sin.

[quote]I don't know where you got that idea from, but I'm not getting into that because the diffrence to me is too obvious. God gives us freedom of choice to either follow him or oppose him. In North Korea it's either you follow the president or you've earned a one-way ticket to camp 22.[/quote]
In God's world it's either you follow him or you go to hell. There is no difference and you've just proven that even more.
[quote] I see you're still holding on to the view that If a ''God'' exists, he would be evil and would be the creator of evil. It just wouldn't work that way. It is true that God is the creator of everything. However, evil itself is not even a ''thing'' like a rock, or water. You cannot have a jar of evil, because technically evil doesn't even exist. When a bad relationship exists between something good and something that opposes goodness, we call that good and evil, and it does not even require a God to create it. God only created goodness. Everything which opposes good, is what we came to know as ''evil''.[/quote]
I can't have a jar of God either. I have now disproven the existence of God with your own faulty logic. Besides, God is all-knowing and should have known evil was coming, which still makes it evil. He's either the creator of everything including evil. It's not like evil suddenly falls aside from the universe, or he doesn't exist and there are other more valid theories.
[quote] If a world untouchable by sin would exist, then that means we wouldn't be having a free will and we would all be robots programmed to do everything God wants.[/quote]
Which would be morally ideal both for him and for us.
[quote] I do take alot what National Geographic and Discovery says, but not just the whole evolution and creation related things. To me it personally makes more sense that a God created the universe and everything else, rather then everything else appearing out of nothing. But then again, it's all just faith. If everything in the bible seems too hard to believe to you, well then there's nothing I can say about it. I personally believe that I have came to know God by reading the bible, as I feel that the biblical depiction about God bears the most truth then any other religion.[/quote]
Sure, I'd trust the 2000 year old books written by racist, sexist, homophobic, violent, sexually frustrated men over empirical evidence and expert's visions any day. After all, that's way easier than actually taking the initiative to find out how stuff works.

[SlayerOfLight]

[quote]Who said this and what source should I take this from besides you? And that's besides the fact that thoughtcrime is a victimless crime, just like blasphemy or sin[/quote]

From the gosepl of Christ, if you really want know. But my point was to explain that God would look at us more diffrently then we look at each other, so I assume this topic is a little bit useless to us now. Besides, sin is not a victimless crime because sin includes murder, robbery, rape, etc.

[quote]In God's world it's either you follow him or you go to hell. There is no difference and you've just proven that even more.[/quote]

No diffrence? I dont know about you, but I clearly do see a diffrence. It's not just ''Follow God or go to hell''. We already have violated God's law by sinning, wether we follow him or not, and we all deserve to punished and send to hell. But unlike Kim Jong-Un, God offers us his grace and mercy because of the sacrifice he made for us, by dying for our sins on the cross. However, people who refuse God's grace simply condemn themselves to hell and leave God no choice but to punish them for their sins, even though God offered them grace and forgiveness. Technically seen God gave up his own life for us as ransom when he came to earth in the flesh as ''Jesus Christ'' so that none of us goes to hell if we simply repent from our sins and turn to him. Hell was also never originally prepared for mankind, but only for the devil and his angels.

[quote]I can't have a jar of God either. I have now disproven the existence of God with your own faulty logic[/quote]

Uhm no, my point wasn't even to try to prove God's existence. You merely changed the subject. Besides, even if it were proven that God would exist, you still couldn't have a jar of him anyway.

[quote]Besides, God is all-knowing and should have known evil was coming, which still makes it evil. He's either the creator of everything including evil. It's not like evil suddenly falls aside from the universe, or he doesn't exist and there are other more valid theories.[/quote]

Well, people get kids while they know their kids could turn out to be evil, but still they want kids nonetheless. Same is with God. He is all loving, and he was aware of the ''evil'' that would come if he created mankind with a free will. I have to admit that this is a bit of a tricky mystery even for me to solve, but one also cannot truly understand a God hundred percent that supposedly has always been present. But it could possibly be that he allowed everything to happen so his glory could manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation, therefore creating mankind and giving them a free will, even though he knew they would fall into sin, is just God being ''God''. Because a God that does not create anything isn't a god. He also knew that one day he would also die for the sins of his creation, and the whole story of sin and redemption is part of manifesting his glory.


[quote]Which would be morally ideal both for him and for us.[/quote]

That would've been slavery, and that wouldn't make God any better then you claim he isn't now. Besides, if you were to given a choice to either have a robot dog as a pet which is programmed to ''love'' you or a real pet dog that willingly chooses to love you, I think it's quite obvious you would choose the latter, just like God, who wants us to love and accept him by our own choice. This would rather prove God to be a loving God.

[quote]Sure, I'd trust the 2000 year old books written by racist, sexist, homophobic, violent, sexually frustrated men over empirical evidence and expert's visions any day. After all, that's way easier than actually taking the initiative to find out how stuff works.[/quote]

Well you weren't there when they wrote this ''book'' so you cannot fully conclude what motivated those men to write the bible.

[DGFone]

[quote="Regulus"]^ Which was exactly my point.

I believe that if a benevolent God existed, we wouldn't. That's because we don't deserve to live, as a species.[/quote]

Well that's... dark.

I mean, I know that humans as a whole did many bad things, but comparing us to regular animals, we are not that different. We just amplify the magnitude of actions times a million compared to say, a duck. Yes, we did some very bad things, but we also did some very good things.

We have the nuke for over half a century, and even when two nuclear global powers wanted to see the other annihilated, both knew that they will refrain from using The Bomb for the common good and live in an uneasy truth if it means that the world won't blow up. So the way I see it, we are no better nor worse than any other animal. Just that we can do so much more evil, and so much more good at the same time, so it evens out.