Ridiculous Religion vs Absurd Atheism

[Claws]

Omg, another never ending religious thread XD

[SlayerOfLight]

[quote]How is it possible that God can create something, but not alter or destroy it? It just doesn't make sense to me, in principle. We humans have the power to change anything that we create, so I find it hard to believe that God can't.
[/quote]

Could you please be a bit more clear on that? Because I'm not sure what this has anything to do with the latter we discussed about. Also, give an example on this.


[quote]Either way, if that is true, then we must have power over God. Therefore, we have free will, and we are capable of making our own decisions. It's as simple as that.[/quote]

Yet you dont seem to realise our own free will is given to us by God, because he doesn't want to create lifeless ''drones'' that are automatically programmed to follow his every command. Unfortunately, having a free will also implies that one can willingly rebel against God and do evil.

[quote]Oh, and on that note, let's not forget that God isn't quite the great being I'm supposed to think he is. If I remember correctly, God told Abraham to kill his son, to test his faith.[/quote]

You got it all wrong there. God merely wanted to test Abraham to see if he would follow such an order, and his son wasn't killed in the end because Abraham was stopped by an angel send by God before he could kill his own son.

[quote]If there is a supreme being, and only one supreme being, then that supreme being had to create everything. By saying that God didn't create evil and sin, then you are also saying that some things are outside of God's control, which, again, means God isn't really a God.[/quote]

That is the ''god'' which is implanted into your mind. You seem to forget that IF there is a God, then this God must be a pure, perfect, good, uncorrupt and holy being. Instead of just being a creator of ''everything'' you should also look at God as a pure light in which no darkness dwells, and therefore no darkness can be produced from the light. In the same manner, God is bound to moralities and he cannot do evil or create evil. If God created evil, then he would act contrary to his own nature, which is something a perfect God can't do. A more valid thing to say is that God is merely the creator of life, and everything that is good and perfect, (like our planet, and the universe for example). Evil is something which developped on it's own whitin his creation.

[Woeler]

So Nicholas, please explain to me. If God will not create evil, why did he create Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pott, Mao Zedong, Heinrich Himmler, etc.?

There is no logic in this. God is either a perfect being (otherwise why follow him) or he is not, and in that case why call him God?

[quote="DGFone"]There are two possibilities here:

There is a creationist being/beings, or there isn't one/more than one. Either one of these possibilities is equally significant in magnitude.[/quote]
This is false in two separate ways. The proposition “Either God exists or not” is just like the proposition “Either X exists or not”. Both are tautologies, statements which are always true no matter what. Adding a tautology to any logical argument changes it not a whit; thus tautologies add no information and can’t be used to infer probabilities. Think of a dice throw. We could say, “A 6 will show or it won’t” but that is equivalent to “A 6 or a 2 will show or they won’t” and so forth; the partitioning is of no consequence, though it might seem it was.

Falsity two: if there is truly “no information on a problem” then no probability can be deduced. What is the probability the following proposition is true? “A rumfrom is a plorsteen.” You have no information. The tautology “A rumfrom is a plorsteen or it isn’t” adds nothing. Therefore no probability whatsoever can be deduced.

[SlayerOfLight]

[quote]So Nicholas, please explain to me. If God will not create evil, why did he create Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pott, Mao Zedong, Heinrich Himmler, etc.?

There is no logic in this. God is either a perfect being (otherwise why follow him) or he is not, and in that case why call him God?[/quote]

God didn't create any of those persons the way they are. They just started life innocent as children, but because of their own free will, they became evil. Imagine this: You are married to a woman, and you and her are doing you-know-what and a while later you get a son. You teache your son to be good and raise him properly, but nonetheless, he turns to crime because of meeting some wrong fellas, and he ends up becomming a murderer. Does that mean that you are guilty of this too, even though you taught your ''son'' to be good? I don't think so. To say God shouldn't have ''created'' those evil persons is the same like saying you shouldn't have taken any kids because your son became a murderer. It's all a matter of free will and choices, and God gave us a free will to make our own decisions wether we oppose him or follow him, though he obviously wants us to follow him and flee from doing evil.

[Woeler]

[quote="Nicholas"][quote]So Nicholas, please explain to me. If God will not create evil, why did he create Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pott, Mao Zedong, Heinrich Himmler, etc.?

There is no logic in this. God is either a perfect being (otherwise why follow him) or he is not, and in that case why call him God?[/quote]

God didn't create any of those persons the way they are. They just started life innocent as children, but because of their own free will, they became evil. Imagine this: You are married to a woman, and you and her are doing you-know-what and a while later you get a son. You teache your son to be good and raise him properly, but nonetheless, he turns to crime because of meeting some wrong fellas, and he ends up becomming a murderer. Does that mean that you are guilty of this too, even though you taught your ''son'' to be good? I don't think so. To say God shouldn't have ''created'' those evil persons is the same like saying you shouldn't have taken any kids because your son became a murderer. It's all a matter of free will and choices, and God gave us a free will to make our own decisions wether we oppose him or follow him, though he obviously wants us to follow him and flee from doing evil.[/quote]

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
~Epicurius

[Regulus]

Okay, but let's look at this from another perspective, if that's not good enough.

If God created man, then he put the entertainment center right next to the waste removal system. This does not seem like something a perfect being would do.

[SlayerOfLight]

[quote="Woeler"][quote="Nicholas"][quote]So Nicholas, please explain to me. If God will not create evil, why did he create Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pott, Mao Zedong, Heinrich Himmler, etc.?

There is no logic in this. God is either a perfect being (otherwise why follow him) or he is not, and in that case why call him God?[/quote]

God didn't create any of those persons the way they are. They just started life innocent as children, but because of their own free will, they became evil. Imagine this: You are married to a woman, and you and her are doing you-know-what and a while later you get a son. You teache your son to be good and raise him properly, but nonetheless, he turns to crime because of meeting some wrong fellas, and he ends up becomming a murderer. Does that mean that you are guilty of this too, even though you taught your ''son'' to be good? I don't think so. To say God shouldn't have ''created'' those evil persons is the same like saying you shouldn't have taken any kids because your son became a murderer. It's all a matter of free will and choices, and God gave us a free will to make our own decisions wether we oppose him or follow him, though he obviously wants us to follow him and flee from doing evil.[/quote]

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
~Epicurius[/quote]

I should ask Epicurius some time if he ever heared of ''tolerance''.

[Regulus]

To tolerate evil is to be evil.

[Woeler]

[quote="Nicholas"][quote="Woeler"]

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
~Epicurius[/quote]

I should ask Epicurius some time if he ever heared of ''tolerance''.[/quote]
Tolerance towards intolerance is cowardice.

[SlayerOfLight]

@Regulus and Woeler:

The thing is, in God's eyes none of us are non-evil because we all have done something evil at least once in our lives. I'm pretty sure all of us ever thought something like: ''damn, I wish that idiot would get killed'' about someone we hate or don't like. This already makes you a murderer in your heart, even though you actually haven't committed the crime. If God were to whipe away all evil, then all of us would cease to exist besides only people like Hitler and Bin Laden. Because all of us have sinned and we all deserve to be punished. None but God is sinless.