Controversy Over a Flag at a Tennessee College

[Regulus]

Morally speaking, discrimination against homosexuals is no different from discrimination against other races. I'm not saying the two are the same; what I am saying is that they're both stupid and wrong on many levels.

[TheLionPrince]

[quote="Woeler"][quote="TheLionPrince"]Here's the thing, couldn't Gilgamesh be the same person as Noah (despite the story differences) since they were both Mesopotamians? It's pretty much a documented fact that the Hebrews were once part of the Mesopotamian complex of cultures.[/quote]

Then why should the epic of Gilgamesh be biblically accepted when the myth of An and Ki is in biblical terms completely ridiculous? Why would the Bible say Mesopotamian story X is true and Mesopotamian story Y is false and on what evidence is that decision based? Why copy Gilgamesh and reject polytheism?

I mean, of course they are the same (fictional IMO) person. It's basically the same story (there are some differences), it's nothing more than a culture created within an older culture.[/quote]

I'm not sure how to answer your question in an articulate approach. Several ancient civilizations have similar creation myths and have parallel flood myths. Those events probably happened, but each civilization have their different version. The Hebrew civilization was the only civilization that had direct communication with YHWH, the Hebrew God, whom told them he is the only true and living God, which is why Judaism (and later on Christianity) is a monotheistic religion that rejects polytheism. Yes, the Sumerian texts predate the writings of the Torah, but one has to remember that before the Torah was written, the Genesis stories were passed down from generation to generation as oral stories.

[quote="Woeler"]Couldn't God be the same person as Zeus since Christianity was founded when the Roman empire occupied both the Greek and the Hebrews? Yet we ridicule Zeus and praise God, but we are willing to accept that Noah and Gilgamesh are the same person.

That logic seems flawed to me. Is Jesus the same person as Horus? Because their stories are almost identical.[/quote]

Here's the thing, Christianity springs from the Judaic religion, but with Jesus of Nazareth worshiped as the Messiah and Son of God added to it after his ascension to heaven. Not to mention, Judaism originated centuries before Greek mythology came about.

The Twelve Olympian gods, according to Greek mythology, live on Mount Olympus while the Hebrew God lives in a supernatural realm known as the heaven. From the various pictures of it, Mount Olympus looks like an ordinary mountain raised 2,917 meters into the Earth's atmosphere, and has been climbed by numerous people. On the other hand, there are several personal accounts of near-death experiences that led to some indication their internal beings entered into another realm whether it be a hell or a heaven, which lies up with the Bible. A 2013 study done by PLOS ONE came to the conclusion that shows that near-death experience "memories have more characteristics than any kind of memory of real or imagined events and of other memories of a period of coma or impaired consciousness following an acquired severe brain dysfunction."

The mythology of Horus isn't as consistent as the birth of Jesus found in the Gospels. In Plutarch's version of the myth found in Moralia, it states that the Egyptian goddess Isis resurrected the dismembered parts of her husband, Osiris, and used her magical powers to form a male sex organ to create Horus. In the earlier Egyptian myths, Osiris's male sex organs actually survived and along with Isis's powers, created Horus.

With that said, here's the differences of the Horus accounts and the life of Jesus. Horus was born by a widowed goddess through necrophilia, while Jesus was born to a virgin mother impregnated by the Holy Spirit. The story of Horus doesn't mention him walking on water. The accounts of Horus state he had four semi-god followers known as the "Heru-Shemsu", while Jesus had twelve human disciplines. Horus did not resurrect his dead father, but actually avenged him when he defeated his uncle, Set. Finally, there are no sources that indicate Horus preached sermons, exorcised demons, died, and resurrected.

[Woeler]

[quote="TheLionPrince"][quote="Woeler"][quote="TheLionPrince"]Here's the thing, couldn't Gilgamesh be the same person as Noah (despite the story differences) since they were both Mesopotamians? It's pretty much a documented fact that the Hebrews were once part of the Mesopotamian complex of cultures.[/quote]

Then why should the epic of Gilgamesh be biblically accepted when the myth of An and Ki is in biblical terms completely ridiculous? Why would the Bible say Mesopotamian story X is true and Mesopotamian story Y is false and on what evidence is that decision based? Why copy Gilgamesh and reject polytheism?

I mean, of course they are the same (fictional IMO) person. It's basically the same story (there are some differences), it's nothing more than a culture created within an older culture.[/quote]

I'm not sure how to answer your question in an articulate approach. Several ancient civilizations have similar creation myths and have parallel flood myths. Those events probably happened, but each civilization have their different version. The Hebrew civilization was the only civilization that had direct communication with YHWH, the Hebrew God, whom told them he is the only true and living God, which is why Judaism (and later on Christianity) is a monotheistic religion that rejects polytheism. Yes, the Sumerian texts predate the writings of the Torah, but one has to remember that before the Torah was written, the Genesis stories were passed down from generation to generation as oral stories. [/quote]


Just a few questions: Who says the Judeo-Christian creation myth is superior to all the other creation myths, while all have scientific proof of 0. And as you say, the stories have been handed down generation after generation without being written down. Then how can these stories be in any sense true or even plausible?

Yes those events probably happened. You are absolutely right. And here's the point. We can assume that flood must have been caused by a God and that the passed on story is absolutely true, or that this was a completely deformed story of an earthquake that resulted in a tsunami. What is more likely? That the laws of nature have been suspended in favor of your story, or that this story has grown completely ridiculous over generations?

I see your point on polytheism, but why? Wasn't it pure chance? Pure randomness? And if it was, it is very unlikely to be reliable.

[quote]On the other hand, there are several personal accounts of near-death experiences that led to some indication their internal beings entered into another realm whether it be a hell or a heaven, which lies up with the Bible. A 2013 study done by PLOS ONE came to the conclusion that shows that near-death experience "memories have more characteristics than any kind of memory of real or imagined events and of other memories of a period of coma or impaired consciousness following an acquired severe brain dysfunction."[/quote]

Yeah, we can go for that explanation, or we could assume that the brain is chemical machine (which it is by the way) and that because the idea of heaven and hell are so well implanted the brain actually creates this images when it's dying. After all, a brain basically 'crashes' when it is dying and it will always try to make as much sense as it can. Which in dying would seem to be an afterlife. In order to make sense the brain uses what it thinks to know about dying. The fact that these memories seems so real is because they are not, because they can not be real. That is why they are remembered so well.


so Zeus was a bad example, pic any 1st ranking God of any other ancient society and see my point.

Now scientists believe they have uncovered the secret behind so-called ‘near death experiences’.

Rather than a religious experience, as many believe, researchers think that the phenomenon could be a simple trick of the mind, caused by a chemical reaction in the body.

People with high levels of carbon dioxide in their bloodstream were more likely to experience the visions, they found.

Previous research suggests that very high levels of the gas can trigger hallucinations in some people.

Many people who have had the experience say that they saw bright lights, a tunnel, or even deceased loved ones beckoning them.

Horus was:

Conceived by a virgin mother named Meri, and had a stepfather named Seb (Joseph)
Was born in a cave, his birth announced by an angel, heralded by a star and attended by shepherds
Attended a special rite of passage at the age of twelve and there is no data on the child
from the age of 12 to 30
Was baptized in a river at the age of 30, and his baptizer was later beheaded
Had 12 disciples
Performed miracles, exorcized demons, raised someone from the dead, walked on water
Was called “Iusa”, the “ever-becoming son” and the “Holy Child”
Delivered a “Sermon on the Mount”, and his followers recounted his sayings
Was transfigured on the Mount
Was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and was resurrected
Called “Way”, “the Truth the Light”, “Messiah”, “God’s Anointed Son”, “Son of Man”, “Good Shepherd”, “Lamb of God”, “Word made flesh”, “Word of Truth”, “the KRST” or “Anointed One”
Was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish, Lamb and Lion.
Came to fulfill the Law, and was supposed to reign one thousand years

No sources you say? One only needs to read the Egyptian equivalent of the Bible, The Book of the Dead or Papyrus of Ani. And I'm not saying that is a valid source, but then again, neither is the Bible.

And then again, who can prove that it is all true, that it is the way we must live? Who can? Show me a God and I will happily follow his rules.

[TheLionPrince]

[quote="Woeler"]Just a few questions: Who says the Judeo-Christian creation myth is superior to all the other creation myths, while all have scientific proof of 0. And as you say, the stories have been handed down generation after generation without being written down. Then how can these stories be in any sense true or even plausible?[/quote]

While there may be no historical proof of Adam and Eve's existence, the term, "Mitochondrial Eve", has thrown around in the study of human genetics that suggests that all living humans were descended from one specific matrilineal ancestor. Recently, back in August, there is a study done by Stanford University School of Medicine geneticists in which they reported the age of Mitochondrial Eve to be about 99,000 and 148,000 years, and the Y-chromosomal Adam to have lived between 120,000 and 156,000 years ago, based on genome sequencing of 69 people from 9 different populations. (source)

[quote="Woeler"]Yes those events probably happened. You are absolutely right. And here's the point. We can assume that flood must have been caused by a God and that the passed on story is absolutely true, or that this was a completely deformed story of an earthquake that resulted in a tsunami. What is more likely? That the laws of nature have been suspended in favor of your story, or that this story has grown completely ridiculous over generations?

I see your point on polytheism, but why? Wasn't it pure chance? Pure randomness? And if it was, it is very unlikely to be reliable.[/quote]

Specifically on the Genesis stories, the laws of nature weren't necessarily suspended; it just rained for 40 days. In fact, according to this chart per time period, the highest level of rainfall in modern history was in Cherrapunji, India for approximately a year from August 1860 to July 1861 with a record of 1,042.0 inches of rain.


As for near-death experience memories being chemical hallucinations, this website, near-death.com, published an article some years ago stating that while the hallucination theory can explain a brain chemical basis, the theory cannot explain everything. Then, it goes on to list specific scientists who claim NDE memories are more logical than being a drug-fueled hallucination. One was by Psychologist John Gills:

[quote]"NDE accounts from varied times and cultures were found to be more orderly, logical, defined and predictable than comparable accounts from drug or illness-induced hallucination. Impressive data from Tart, Moody and Carl Becker also argue for the objective elements of a NDE, including returning with knowledge later verified and third-party observations of odd death-bed phenomena (such as luminosity or apparitions)."[/quote]

Another was by Neuropsychiatrist Peter Fenwick who stated the difference between NDE and hallucinations:

[quote]The difficulty with those theories is that when you create these wonderful states by taking drugs, you're conscious. In the NDE, you are unconscious. One of the things we know about brain function in unconsciousness, is that you cannot create images and if you do, you cannot remember them."[/quote]

[quote="Woeler"]Horus was:

Conceived by a virgin mother named Meri, and had a stepfather named Seb (Joseph)[/quote]

Okay, there are two problems with this. First, the Egyptian name, Meri, is not exactly a name, but an adjective. It means "beloved" so in the Egyptian stories, and Horus's mother was actually named Isis. To describe the goddess as beloved, you would say Meri-Isis. Second, there are at least six women named Mary in the New Testament so it is not exclusive to just the Virgin Mary.

The name, Seb, is an alternate spelling of the Egyptian God known as Geb who was the father of Isis therefore the grandfather of Horus. After Horus defeated Set, Geb supported Horus's right to rule following Osiris's death. Hardly anything of a stepfather figure because Isis was the protector of Horus from Set, his uncle. This is different from Joseph (a descendant of King David) who was not the father of the Virgin Mary, but simply chosen by God to raise his son so Mary wouldn't be stoned to death for pregnancy outside of marriage.

The only similarities from here were that the parent(s) of Horus and Jesus fled to escape from their child from being murdered by an evil king, Set or Herod the Great in the Biblical stories.

[quote="Woeler"]Was born in a cave, his birth announced by an angel, heralded by a star and attended by shepherds[/quote]

Horus was born when his mother, Isis, restored the body of her murdered husband Osiris, and used her powers to create a golden [censored] to create a son.

[quote="Woeler"]Attended a special rite of passage at the age of twelve and there is no data on the child
from the age of 12 to 30[/quote]

There is no record of this in the Egyptian stories.

[quote="Woeler"]Was baptized in a river at the age of 30, and his baptizer was later beheaded[/quote]

There wasn't any baptizer character in the Egyptian stories. Yes, Gerald Massey did write of an "Anup the Baptizer", but there is no such character in the Horus legend. The closest there is to that character is Anubis, but he's the god of the dead.

[quote="Woeler"]Had 12 disciples[/quote]

Like I said before, Horus did have followers, but the number just don't calculate to the number of twelve.

[quote="Woeler"]Performed miracles, exorcized demons, raised someone from the dead, walked on water[/quote]

The only miracle that was told in the Horus stories was done by Thoth, the god of medicine. When Horus battles Set for the throne, Seth stabs the left eye of his nephew. Horus's eye was replaced by Thoth who restores it out of moonlight, and creates the Eye of Horus. Horus did not raise anyone from the dead, not even his dead father, Osiris. His mother, Isis, briefly resurrected Osiris and used their powers to create Horus.

Horus is the zoomorph of a falcon, and can therefore fly over various bodies of water, not exactly walk on it. However, I don't recall the existence of demons in Egyptian mythology; all deities are either gods and goddesses.

[quote="Woeler"]Was called “Iusa”, the “ever-becoming son” and the “Holy Child”[/quote]

Meh, I'm not sure if those terms were used in recorded Egyptian texts. Terms used to described Horus were "lord of the sky" or "the distant one" referring to his falcon zoomorph according to this website.

[quote="Woeler"]Delivered a “Sermon on the Mount”, and his followers recounted his sayings[/quote]

I looked and looked, but found no creditable source for this.

[quote="Woeler"]Was transfigured on the Mount[/quote]

Proof?

[quote="Woeler"]Was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and was resurrected[/quote]

Horus was never crucified in the original story, though this is not without mentioning that Horus and Ra (the god of the sun) merged together so when the sun "dies" as in a sunset, it rises again in the morning. Plus, Horus is a god so he's supposed to be immortal.

[quote="Woeler"]Called “Way”, “the Truth the Light”, “Messiah”, “God’s Anointed Son”, “Son of Man”, “Good Shepherd”, “Lamb of God”, “Word made flesh”, “Word of Truth”, “the KRST” or “Anointed One”[/quote]

Those terms weren't used in Egyptian times. In fact, Messiah was originally a term used to describe Cyrus the Great.

[quote="Woeler"]Was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish, Lamb and Lion.[/quote]

The only animal Horus is associated with is the falcon.

[quote="Woeler"]Came to fulfill the Law, and was supposed to reign one thousand years[/quote]

There wasn't an Egyptian "law" for Horus to fulfill, and there was no mention of a millennial reign in Egyptian mythology.

[quote="Woeler"]No sources you say? One only needs to read the Egyptian equivalent of the Bible, The Book of the Dead or Papyrus of Ani. And I'm not saying that is a valid source, but then again, neither is the Bible.

And then again, who can prove that it is all true, that it is the way we must live? Who can? Show me a God and I will happily follow his rules.[/quote]

Just believe Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for your sins and the sins of the world, and you will be saved, and he will show himself on your behalf not naturally, but spiritually. After all, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[Woeler]

Shall we move to a new topic about this: show

In the beginning I was sorry for the fact that I didn't put quotes in this post, it just confuses the hell out of me.

Alright, so first of all, not only is there not historical proof Adam and EVE did exist, there is no proof at all. The term ''mitochondrial Eve'' has nothing to do with any creation story nor with any truth related to it. The name was given because this makes it an understandable term. The article itself says
[quote] In fact, it is highly probable that at some point in the past, all men except one possessed Y chromosomes that by now are extinct. All men living now, then, would have a Y chromosome descended from that one man — identified as Y-chromosome Adam. (The biblical reference is a bit of a misnomer because this Adam was by no means the only man alive at his time.)[/quote]

It is meteorologically impossible for rain to cover the entire surface of the earth. Plus no geological evidence shows any global, or even continental flooding at all.

Alright, I get that science cannot explain everything behind the human brain (yet). But to say ''Science doesn't know, therefore heaven and God'' is ludicrous and extremely ignorant.

A more recent study (done by actual scientists, not just a collection of quotes from various people and some scientists) shows that the mammalian brain can, albeit paradoxically, generate neural correlates of heightened conscious processing at near-death.

"Meri" (technically "Mr-ee") is the egyptian word for "beloved" and was apparently applied to Isis prior to Jesus' time, as a title, not as part of her name. The fact that 'Meri' was just an adjective proves nothing at all. The story was heard by people and rewritten by people. While her real name was Isis, or meri Isis, it doesn't mean at all that because 'meri' is just an adjective it couldn't possibly be reused as 'Mary' in the Bible. I'm pretty sure calling her Isis was plagiarism even ancient bronze age people could understand.

Yet again, the differences in character do not rule out the similarities in names to be non-existent.

And just while we're talking about the virgin birth anyway. I ask you again: what is more likely, that Mary did indeed become pregnant without a man even though there is no scientific proof at all that this can ever happen (because it can't), or that a woman living in a culture in which being raped was punished by stoning was covering up her rape?

The virginity of Isis is debatable. She was married to Osiris, and there is no reason to suppose she was abstinent after marriage. Horus was, per the story, miraculously conceived. Seth had killed and dismembered Osiris, then Isis put her husband's dead body back together except the genital part.

Horus was given three different birthdates in mythology, one of which does correspond to December 25th.
Horus did have followers, which can be seen as an older version of Jesus' desciples. There are claims he had 4, 12 or 16. But 12 is definitely there.

Egyptian demons DID exist. Ammit, Apep, Shezmu.

Horus delivered a "sermon on the mount" and there is within the Egyptian Hermetic or Trismergestic tradition a discourse called The Secret Sermon on the Mount. Furthermore, a lot of the Egyptian sayings found their way into the Old Testament. As for the Sermon on the Mount by Jesus, it's merely a regurgitation of ancient sayings, as well as a patchwork of utterances found within the pages of the Old Testament. These include the Psalms, Isaiah, Ecclesiasticus, the Secrets of Enoch, the Shemoneheresh (Hebrew Prayers), and others.

The same words are also found in some of the other gospels that did not make the cut into the bible, sometimes called "The Little Apocalypse". They seem to be verbatim quotations from the Books of Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, and the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs.

Some of the most beautiful sayings within the Sermon on the Mount actually come from the doctrines of the pre-Christian Nazarenes.

Transfigurement on the mount and more stuff, also from other Gods.

In this regard, Osiris and Horus both were associated with and/or identified as a cross, such as the ankh, which, like the cross of Jesus, represents eternal life. Horus is identified with the cross in several ways, using the ankh, for instance, to raise Osiris from the dead. Providing an example of the Church fathers' contention about gods with arms outstretched making the sign of the cross or being in "crucial frame," i.e., cruciform, Egyptologist Dr. Erik Hornung discusses Horus as the hawk "whose wings span the sky" (CGAE, 124) and "the ancient god of the heavens, whose wings spread over the whole earth" (VK, 59). We find several other Egyptian gods and goddesses in this same cruciform pose, with arms and wings outstretched, including in tombs and on numerous coffins, serving as protection and assistance for a smooth passage into the afterlife, the same role as the cross on Christian coffins. Again, the early Christians considered figures with arms outstretched to be making the sign of the cross, and they compared Pagan gods in cruciform to Christ on the cross.

Horus as the hawk with his wings or arms outstretched reflects his role as the sky god "crossing over" the sky, as depicted in various hymns and Coffin Texts. The significance of asserting the sky god to be "crucified" is not that his myth is imitated exactly in the gospel story but that he was a revered pre-Christian god "on a cross" and that this particular motif was adopted by those who created the Christian myth specifically because it was a popular and venerated theme.

Various other sources on the internet all make references to the Book of the Dead. Even your own source (near-death.com) has an article about Jesus/Horus. I'd highly recommend you to get a translated copy of this book. I have a copy (in Dutch), the translation is simply horrific, I'm sure that will be the same with the English one too. Nevertheless, it's enriching.

Last but not least. You tell me to just believe Jesus is the son of God. So you are telling me to just believe and at the same time you ask me to justify my own claims with proof? That seems odd. Why do I need to prove myself while you don't? Why don't you just believe in Allah or Zeus or Thor or the Great djudju of the mountain? Just think about the reason you do not believe in Thor, and that will be the reason I don't believe in Jesus.

Jesus did not die for me. I didn't even ask him to, I didn't even want him to. Hope is an illusion, almost a weakness. Hope is for those who can't face reality.


The invisible and the non-existent are very much alike.

[TheLionPrince]

Fine, if that's you want.

Spoiler: show

Yes, I know the term, "Mitochondrial Eve", doesn't refer to the biblical Eve. It's simply a scientific term that refers to the descendants of mankind originated from one humanoid female. Adam was the only man on Earth for quite a short period of time before the births of his sons (and 130 years when he gives birth to his third known son, Seth) compared to what it says in Genesis 5:4-5 which refers to him being the father of "many sons and daughters" for 800 years of his lifespan. Overall, Adam lived 930 years on Earth before he died due to no known diseases at the time and a healthy gene pool. So, yeah, Adam's lifespan would have overlapped with the lifespans of his sons and daughters.

So, the biblical content does connect with the article that is mostly accurate.

As for geological evidence of Noah's Flood, in fact last year, archaeologist Robert Ballard (who discovered the remains of the RMS Titanic in 1985) investigated a theory in which the now-salty Black Sea was once an isolated freshwater lake surrounded by farmland, until it was flooded by an enormous wall of water from the rising Mediterranean Sea, and unearthed an ancient shoreline which is evident that a possible flood occurred there. Through the use of carbon dating, they dated the object to have originated in 5000 B.C. which some experts believe Noah's Flood to have happened in. (source)

As for 'Meri', this will be an unsolved debate in terms of linguistics. While it's possible the name has Egyptian origins, the name, Mary, derives from the Hebrew word מִרְיָם, Miryam, which has a meaning of "bitterness" (referring to the word myrrh). Various meanings have indicated its use of "rebelliousness", "bitter sea", or "wished for child".

As for Horus's one of three birthdays and one falling on December 25, each civilization celebrates their version of the winter solstice. In terms of Jesus, it is highly unlikely Jesus was born in December since in the book of Luke, there were present shepherds with their sheep in the field which would be sheltered inside if the temperatures were cold. Not to mention, it's cold and wet in Bethlehem which is an unsafe environment to birth a child.

So, it can be assumed that the birth of Jesus either occurred in the summer or early fall. Years later, the early Christians took the Roman winter solstice celebration of Saturnalia which celebrated Sol Invictus (the Roman sun god) which occurs in December 25, and revised into celebrating Jesus as the "sun of righteousness". As for Horus, he is also a sun god so his birth during the winter solstice makes sense. The celebration of Horus most definitely preceded the Saturnalia celebration when the Romans celebrated their version of a sun god which the Christians took into celebrating Jesus.

And I stand corrected in the existence of Egyptian demons. It is still unproven (to me) where in the Horus stories he cast them down.

Kindly enough, I was able to find some source of this "Sermon on the Mount". According to this website, Horus said,

[quote]I have given bread to the hungry man and water to the thirsty man and clothing to the naked person and a boat to the shipwrecked mariner."[/quote]

This is in comparison to what Jesus said in Matthew 25:36-37,

[quote]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me..."[/quote]

This is a fair comparison and no doubt that the passages are similar, though the article notes of a survey of twenty Egyptologists, and only ten of them agree that Horus did not have twelve disciplines or was an incarnation of God that requires salvation for eternal judgment which the sermon Horus gave claims to state.

Okay, now you're shifting the subject of Horus being crucified to the use of the ankh in funeral services which was later adopted into the use of the Christian cross for the dead, gods in a cruciform pose to protect the dead, and Horus outstretching his wings that was later picked by the early Christians? Your arguments are not lining up at least to me. Jesus in the cruciform pose has little to the Egyptian version of it since crucifixion was a form of capital punishment and an otherwise humiliating execution originating the Roman Empire. Horus did not raise Osiris from the death; Osiris, in his death, became the Egyptian God of the Underworld. But, yes, the Christian symbolism of the cross was taken from pagans.

And you're comparing two different situations. I was asking for evidence when you were comparing a deity to another while you're accusing me of the lack of evidence of the existence of a deity. It's widely accepted by historians that Jesus of Nazareth was baptized by John the Baptist and crucified by Pontius Pilate through Flavius Josephus's writings in Antiquities of the Jews. If performing miracles, driving out demons, walking on water, and resurrecting from the dead is too much for you to believe, that's fine by me.