Controversy Over a Flag at a Tennessee College

[TheLionPrince]

[quote="TheLionPrince"]I agree with the message that LGBTQ community born in the United States are Americans.[/quote]
It's slightly off-topic, but does this mean you don't consider legal citizens who moved to the country at some point in their life through legal channels to be Americans?[/quote]

If they immigrant legally into the United States or were born in another country to at least one American parent, then yes, they are Americans. Thanks for pointing that out in my phrase.

[quote="Woeler"][quote="Kiburi"]"Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"[/quote]
You misquoted that one:

"Life, Liberty*, and the Pursuit of Happiness"

*except if you are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual, communist, atheist, muslim or any other specific group that is not accepted on the grounds 2000 year old fairy-tales dreamed up by a bunch of middle-eastern people by transforming myths of earlier civilizations.[/quote]

By 2000 year old fairy-tales, you're referring to the Bible, right? As an example of transforming myths of earlier civilizations, you mean "stealing" the Epic of Gilgamesh, and creating the story of Adam and Eve and the story of Noah's Ark?

Here's the thing, couldn't Gilgamesh be the same person as Noah (despite the story differences) since they were both Mesopotamians? It's pretty much a documented fact that the Hebrews were once part of the Mesopotamian complex of cultures.

[Woeler]

[quote="TheLionPrince"]Here's the thing, couldn't Gilgamesh be the same person as Noah (despite the story differences) since they were both Mesopotamians? It's pretty much a documented fact that the Hebrews were once part of the Mesopotamian complex of cultures.[/quote]

Then why should the epic of Gilgamesh be biblically accepted when the myth of An and Ki is in biblical terms completely ridiculous? Why would the Bible say Mesopotamian story X is true and Mesopotamian story Y is false and on what evidence is that decision based? Why copy Gilgamesh and reject polytheism?

I mean, of course they are the same (fictional IMO) person. It's basically the same story (there are some differences), it's nothing more than a culture created within an older culture.

Couldn't God be the same person as Zeus since Christianity was founded when the Roman empire occupied both the Greek and the Hebrews? Yet we ridicule Zeus and praise God, but we are willing to accept that Noah and Gilgamesh are the same person.

That logic seems flawed to me. Is Jesus the same person as Horus? Because their stories are almost identical.

[Regulus]

[quote="Kiburi"]You see, I never said that it was true for/applied to everyone, I simply said that it was founded on that principal, so we should at least try to live up to it.[/quote]

I know. But, you have to remember that our country, like many other countries, is founded on one very simple idea. It's the idea of saying one thing while doing the complete opposite, and hoping that no one notices.

[DGFone]

That's the odd thing about this country: The US government was founded upon the principles of the enlightenment and personal freedom.

..And yet realistically, the first "Americans" were the religious zealots who fled Europe after they were deemed to radical. After all, just look at the Puritans.

[SlayerOfLight]

I do have a little issue with the flag though. It's absolutely not that I hate gays or lesbians, but in my opinion the rainbow flag's only purpose is to annoy the hell out of people that aren't fond with same sex relationships, and is therefore luring criticism just so gay people can keep playing victems. We heterosexual people also don't hang our own flags everywhere and try to show the world how ''proud'' we are to be straight... Once again I dont hate gays or anything, but I wish that some of them would be less open to the world about their sexual orientation pride, because not everyone gives a fudge about it.

[Woeler]

[quote="DGFone"]That's the odd thing about this country: The US government was founded upon the principles of the enlightenment and personal freedom.

..And yet realistically, the first "Americans" were the religious zealots who fled Europe after they were deemed to radical. After all, just look at the Puritans.[/quote]
This becomes even more interesting when reading the constitution or the deceleration of independence.

Most of the founding fathers seemed to be atheist or at least deist. Founding fathers who espoused Deism were Thomas Paine (Age of reason), George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe.

The only word in the deceleration of independence that might refer to 'a God' is the word ''Creator'', which by no means shows a preference towards any religion. It could also refer to 'parents' or nature itself.

The there is the constitution. All one has to do is read it, and see how often the Framers used the words "God," or "Creator," "Jesus," or "Lord." None of these words ever appears in the Constitution, neither the original nor in any of the Amendments.

Then there is the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797 stating that ''The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion'', yet the only reason gay people are by law (in many states) viewed as less than heterosexual people is a biblical one.

[quote="Nicholas"]I do have a little issue with the flag though. It's absolutely not that I hate gays or lesbians, but in my opinion the rainbow flag's only purpose is to annoy the hell out of people that aren't fond with same sex relationships, and is therefore luring criticism just so gay people can keep playing victems. We heterosexual people also don't hang our own flags everywhere and try to show the world how ''proud'' we are to be straight... Once again I dont hate gays or anything, but I wish that some of them would be less open to the world about their sexual orientation pride, because not everyone gives a fudge about it.[/quote]

What would you do when your 'kind' has been unaccepted, discriminated against and sometimes even murdered for 2000 years? And I'm saying this as a straight person.

[Regulus]

I do have a little issue with the flag though. It's absolutely not that I hate straight people, but in my opinion the rainbow flag's only purpose is to annoy the hell out of people that aren't fond with opposite sex relationships, and is therefore luring criticism just so straight people can keep playing victems. We homosexual people also don't hang our own flags everywhere and try to show the world how ''proud'' we are to be gay... Once again I dont hate breeders or anything, but I wish that some of them would be less open to the world about their sexual orientation pride, because not everyone gives a fudge about it.

Fixed. As a straight man, I'm pretty sure this is what you actually meant to say.

If you actually think it's like that, then you're either blind or stupid. I don't mean to call anyone out here, but it's the truth. Open your eyes and open your mind. You'll see that not being straight is practically a death sentence in grade school, and the entire issue itself only brings out the worst of what humanity has to offer, later on in life.

I'd rather lose an arm and a leg, than have to deal with the unbelievable prejudice, stupidity, and unfairness that gay people deal with on a daily basis.

[Woeler]

[quote="Regulus"]I'd rather lose an arm and a leg, than have to deal with the unbelievable prejudice, stupidity, and unfairness that gay people deal with on a daily basis.[/quote]

And you know what's even worse? There is not a single rational argument against homosexuality. There is not a single person on this planet who can logically justify the discrimination of homosexuals.

One of the main tasks a government should have is protecting people who are discriminated against because of who they are. (i.e. race, sex, handicap, sexual orientation). And what a government shouldn't do is protect a religion. Don't get me wrong, people are free to think and believe the most wicked, weird and stupid things imaginable. But believing in a Deus or rules prescribed by a Deus is a choice, it has nothing to do with 'being born that way'. And since it is based on practically nothing it should never ever have any say in political issues, especially if it comes to equality.

We have successfully destroyed the passage that said women should have no rights. We have successfully destroyed the passage that said slavery is ok. We have successfully destroyed the passage that said unbelievers are the filth of this world. And now it is time to destroy the passage that says homosexuality is wrong.

Because if a 'just' God does exist, this life may well be a test. And the only way to pass it is to be rational and give up this bronze-age pseudo-morality so true equality can prevail.

[Kiburi]

Yeah, I agree with all of you guys.
I would definitely rather lose an arm or a leg than have to deal with all of that crap every day.

[Carl]

[quote="Nicholas"]I do have a little issue with the flag though. It's absolutely not that I hate gays or lesbians, but in my opinion the rainbow flag's only purpose is to annoy the hell out of people that aren't fond with same sex relationships, and is therefore luring criticism just so gay people can keep playing victems. We heterosexual people also don't hang our own flags everywhere and try to show the world how ''proud'' we are to be straight... Once again I dont hate gays or anything, but I wish that some of them would be less open to the world about their sexual orientation pride, because not everyone gives a fudge about it.[/quote]

The thing is, we don't want to need to fly that flag. It's just that, if we aren't proud of who we are, if we don't stand up for ourselves and the rights we are denied and do not make ourselves known, then we will continue to be discriminated against and persecuted because of something we can't change. We have to be proud and we have to be vocal or the laws won't change, and we will still be victimized. Did you know that here in America, killing an LGBT person because they are LGBT doesn't count as a hate crime according to the law? Did you know that many people, myself included, have been called hurtful things and have been bullied because they simply looked like they might be LGBT? Did you know that in my state and others farther south than mine, people run a risk of being shot by strangers because they are or look to be LGBT? And did you know that many people in the country don't see that as being wrong?

This doesn't even refer to just marriage equality, and it doesn't only refer to same-sex partnerships. It refers also to those who are transgender, transsexual, genderqueer, pansexual or bisexual, and a broad spectrum of other things. It refers to people who are different in gender identity or sexual preference, and not all of these people end up in same-sex relationships. But all of these people are being discriminated against, or anyone who looks like they might fall into the broad LGBT category.

We aren't trying to lure criticism, we aren't "playing" victims, and we don't want to rub it in everyone's face. But we can't exactly fight back with violence if we want to get anywhere. So, if you think this flag is just annoying, how would you propose we go about getting fair treatment?